The sin of "Scandal"

[roseofshannon]

Thanks, RoseOfShannon. I know Scott. I don’t really want to push this toward being yet another thread on homosexuality and the Church, with all the rancor which that usually brings. I would offer the observation, though, that one’s sexuality is not merely a “lifestyle choice.” It runs deeper than that.

As for the personal challenge, I don’t see mine as any more nor as any less, than as a heterosexual male who, for any of a number of reasons, may not marry or have a family. I can’t put myself into my straight brother’s head, but my sense is that the yearning to have a family is the same and occurs at around my age for many men. From these feelings within me, I believe that I understand why gays are pushing for secular marriage and adoption, etc… I hope these observations don’t start yet another acrimonious debate on “gay marriage”.

No worries mate–God Bless!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Peepers

**On a yet more personal note, and I reveal this because it may color my “arguments” here, I am homosexual. I have struggled with this, and as you may surmise, it has complicated my relationship with the Church. There is no “community” which truly accepts a celibate gay man of my age. My experience of the Catholic Church as a community and social institution has not been entirely positive, when compared to some of the Protestant denominations, in this respect.

So there you go. More than anyone probably wanted to know about me. **

Honesty is appreciated everywhere.

What I find curious is that you are not vigorously exploring one of the Protestant denominations where homosexuality is not only approved, but rewarded (such as in the Anglican Church where some priests live openly homosexual lives and can still become bishops). Are you aware of this?

 

[Peepers]

Peepers

**On a yet more personal note, and I reveal this because it may color my “arguments” here, I am homosexual. I have struggled with this, and as you may surmise, it has complicated my relationship with the Church. There is no “community” which truly accepts a celibate gay man of my age. My experience of the Catholic Church as a community and social institution has not been entirely positive, when compared to some of the Protestant denominations, in this respect.

So there you go. More than anyone probably wanted to know about me. **

Honesty is appreciated everywhere.

What I find curious is that you are not vigorously exploring one of the Protestant denominations where homosexuality is not only approved, but rewarded (such as in the Anglican Church where some priests live openly homosexual lives and can still become bishops). Are you aware of this?

Yes, I am aware of this. My mom is a big proponent of the Episcopalian faith, and I have spent some quality time with her minister. I am exploring Christianity as dispassionately as I am able to. I am not trying to rationalize my beliefs based on my sexual orientation. The crux of the issue for me, at present, is the question of whether the Catholic teaching that there is an enduring and unchanging moral code handed down directly from God, through the auspices of the Church. I have my moments of hubris, but I hope I have never gone so far as to decide what God should think. My will bends to my beliefs. So, for now, I am celibate, and exploring what that means in my life, and where my spiritual life is going.

 

[Peepers]

As an aside, I would encourage anyone who knows a gay youngster to be compassionate with him or her.

Imagine yourself coming into your own sexuality, and being told through that period in your life that your sexual orientation, which feels perfectly natural and life affirming to you as your body matures, is an inherently disordered condition, and that if you ever act on those impulses that you will be committing a grave moral offense.

This is a far different message than the message that straight kids receive, who are told to celebrate their sexuality in a morally responsible way as a gift from God.

It is not surprising that the most common cause of death for teens is suicide, and a disproportionate number of those kids are gay.

I would like every person who may say something to a kid, or be overheard by a kid, or who may influence a kid to be aware of this. You don’t know which kids are gay. If you send out the wrong message, then you may never know until you find that kid acting in irresponsible ways out of self hatred, or worse, because of the messages that they have received from society or adults. Words and example matter. A snide remark can have a profound influence. It sometimes surprises me how hateful speech can be, and how much damage it can do.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

This is a far different message than the message that straight kids receive, who are told to celebrate their sexuality in a morally responsible way as a gift from God.

All of what you just said seems to be the opening of a can of worms. You shouldn’t do that. Are you using this forum on the sin of “scandal” to sidetrack us into a discussion of whether homosexuality is disordered and whether we have an obligation to just be silent about that in front of young people. I think we have just the opposite obligation, though the obligation must be fulfilled with charity rather than cruelty.?

I urge you to back off this topic because you seem to be advocating that Catholics should themselves practice the sin of scandal by suppressing among young people the public awareness of homosexuality as a sinful condition.

This is, of course, one of the reasons why so many Anglicans are leaving their Church. They have about had it with the public acceptance of openly homosexual bishops, priests, and now even same-sex marriage.

It is not surprising that the most common cause of death for teens is suicide, and a disproportionate number of those kids are gay.

A disproportionate number of gay young men are also destined to die from AIDS.

 

[Peepers]

This is a far different message than the message that straight kids receive, who are told to celebrate their sexuality in a morally responsible way as a gift from God.

All of what you just said seems to be the opening of a can of worms. You shouldn’t do that. Are you using this forum on the sin of “scandal” to sidetrack us into a discussion of whether homosexuality is disordered and whether we have an obligation to just be silent about that in front of young people. I think we have just the opposite obligation, though the obligation must be fulfilled with charity rather than cruelty.?

I urge you to back off this topic because you seem to be advocating that Catholics should themselves practice the sin of scandal by suppressing among young people the public awareness of homosexuality as a sinful condition.

This is, of course, one of the reasons why so many Anglicans are leaving their Church. They have about had it with the public acceptance of openly homosexual bishops, priests, and now even same-sex marriage.

It is not surprising that the most common cause of death for teens is suicide, and a disproportionate number of those kids are gay.

A disproportionate number of gay young men are also destined to die from AIDS.

I have note advocated such a thing. I advocated compassion in dealing with gay youth. It is as simple as that.

They should be informed of the dangers of HIV, along with the dangers of HPV which causes cervical cancer (along with information on other STD’s), and is far more prevalent.

The moral message remains the same, but should be given in a compassionate way. If that violates Catholic thinking, then I am glad to learn of that, because I am still forming my opinion about Catholicism.

 

[Peepers]

I have note advocated such a thing. I advocated compassion in dealing with gay youth. It is as simple as that.

They should be informed of the dangers of HIV, along with the dangers of HPV which causes cervical cancer (along with information on other STD’s), and is far more prevalent.

The moral message remains the same, but should be given in a compassionate way. If that violates Catholic thinking, then I am glad to learn of that, because I am still forming my opinion about Catholicism.

Are you a parent? I hope this question is not too personal. If so, then feel free to decline to answer. But if so, I would like to know how you would deal with a gay child or grandchild, if he or she came to you for advice?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Peepers

**The moral message remains the same, but should be given in a compassionate way. If that violates Catholic thinking, then I am glad to learn of that, because I am still forming my opinion about Catholicism. **

You are not telling Catholics anything they don’t already know. “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”

But I think you have already pretty much formed your opinion of Catholicism, and homosexuality is about all you want to discuss and justify. You certainly won’t win any converts here, if that is your game. Are you only going to participate in threads that discuss homosexuality? If so, it’s clear you don’t want to learn much about Catholicism. I see you are already at Exalt’s thread, a former Catholic (now an atheist) who by his own words “rejoices” in being homosexual.

 

[Peepers]

Peepers

The moral message remains the same, but should be given in a compassionate way. If that violates Catholic thinking, then I am glad to learn of that, because I am still forming my opinion about Catholicism.

You are not telling Catholics anything they don’t already know. “Hate the sin, love the sinner.”

But I think you have already pretty much formed your opinion of Catholicism, and homosexuality is about all you want to discuss and justify. You certainly won’t win any converts here, if that is your game. Are you only going to participate in threads that discuss homosexuality? If so, it’s clear you don’t want to learn much about Catholicism. I see you are already at Exalt’s thread, a former Catholic (now an atheist) who by his own words “rejoices” in being homosexual.

Charlemagne. I would like to engage in civil discourse with you. However, if that is going to happen, then we will need some ground rules based on healthy boundaries. Do not tell me what I think. Ask me, if you would like to know. Contrary to what you imagine, you don’t know what I think. Do not tell me what my motives are. Ask me what they are. Contrary to what you imagine, you cannot read anyone’s mind. I have no problem with your singling out any or my posts which may interest you, but please don’t do me the discourtesy of extrapolating a few posts to represent my totality. If you have read all of my posts here, you might have a different opinion. Regardless of that, your opinion of me is irrelevant to anyone but you, so be kind enough to keep it to yourself. If you take offense at any of these ground rules, then please leave me alone. I don’t want to be bothered by your comments which are irrelevant to my personal journey. Please enjoy your journey. If you do not understand my points about personal boundaries, then I would suggest that you inquire into the program of Codependents anonymous, which is faith based, or that you visit your priest or preferred mental health professional and have a discussion about appropriate personal boundaries.

 

[roseofshannon]

Peepers,
I admire your humble willingness to seek out Truth, even if you may find you don’t like it or agree with it at first.

The Catechism and the Pope both make it very clear that we are to be only charitable in our treatment of persons with SSA. Any less would be a serious sin.

With regards to what I would say to one of my kids:
I love you and nothing you can say or do will change that.
God loves you and nothing you can say or do will change that.
I’m sorry you are struggling with this.
Everyone struggles with sins and temptations and giving in to them does not lead us to happiness in the end.
This particular sin has many, many grave consequences–including health issues which are prevalent even if you were to find a lifelong monogamous relationship between two virgins–which makes it pretty clear that our bodies weren’t meant to work this way.
Because I love you so much I can’t condone it.
Because I love God, the author of life and sex, I can’t condone it.
We’re here to help you any way we can.

Also, I’m sorry if my description of Scott living the “gay lifestyle” was not in accordance with your situation. There are so many variations in the culture and it’s difficult to always get it right. I’ve read that using SSA is probably more accurate and less labeling.

I guess that’s the way I see the issue–as one of having temptations or SSA–not one of beingmy temptations or sin areas. I wouldn’t want to go around being labelled “a glutton” or “a masterbater” even though these have been temptations I’ve felt since I was a young child.

I think it’s sad that our young people who experience temptations are labelled so quickly. I’ve had indecent thoughts about other men or priests even and I’m so glad that I’m not encouraged to act on them or be labelled by them.

(This example is not to make light of your pain, but just for exploring the nature of temptation) If I told my parents when I was a kid that I decided that I’m just not a vegetable eater, and that I only like doughnuts and will only eat doughnuts from now on, I think they would lovingly talk me out of that plan of action–even if I felt that I had been born a doughnut eater, and had only liked doughnuts from when I was very young and never, ever liked vegetables!

Also, while I think it’s gotta be very difficult (painful) for you to desire a family and wonder why God allowed you to have these impediments to that, I think part of the problem in our culture is that we have been brought up to believe that “you can be anything you want to be”. Well, not always.

I will never be an NBA basketball player for instance. I could mourn that fact for the rest of my life, but I think it’s better to find out what gifts God has given me and use those gifts for his kingdom…bloom where I am planted.

The married life has some lovely aspects to be sure, but it is also a very real cross. It was hard for me to understand that when I wanted to get married so badly and have kids, but now I see that and have times I just want to run away (as do my friends from time to time). But now this is where I am called and will serve whether I feel like it or not.

You are obviously a very talented individual, and I hope that you find God’s will for your life and that he will give you the grace of contentment in that plan.

God Bless!

 

[Peepers]

Peepers,
I admire your humble willingness to seek out Truth, even if you may find you don’t like it or agree with it at first.

The Catechism and the Pope both make it very clear that we are to be only charitable in our treatment of persons with SSA. Any less would be a serious sin.

With regards to what I would say to one of my kids:
I love you and nothing you can say or do will change that.
God loves you and nothing you can say or do will change that.
I’m sorry you are struggling with this.
Everyone struggles with sins and temptations and giving in to them does not lead us to happiness in the end.
This particular sin has many, many grave consequences–including health issues which are prevalent even if you were to find a lifelong monogamous relationship between two virgins–which makes it pretty clear that our bodies weren’t meant to work this way.
Because I love you so much I can’t condone it.
Because I love God, the author of life and sex, I can’t condone it.
We’re here to help you any way we can.

Also, I’m sorry if my description of Scott living the “gay lifestyle” was not in accordance with your situation. There are so many variations in the culture and it’s difficult to always get it right. I’ve read that using SSA is probably more accurate and less labeling.

I guess that’s the way I see the issue–as one of having temptations or SSA–not one of beingmy temptations or sin areas. I wouldn’t want to go around being labelled “a glutton” or “a masterbater” even though these have been temptations I’ve felt since I was a young child.

I think it’s sad that our young people who experience temptations are labelled so quickly. I’ve had indecent thoughts about other men or priests even and I’m so glad that I’m not encouraged to act on them or be labelled by them.

(This example is not to make light of your pain, but just for exploring the nature of temptation) If I told my parents when I was a kid that I decided that I’m just not a vegetable eater, and that I only like doughnuts and will only eat doughnuts from now on, I think they would lovingly talk me out of that plan of action–even if I felt that I had been born a doughnut eater, and had only liked doughnuts from when I was very young and never, ever liked vegetables!

Also, while I think it’s gotta be very difficult (painful) for you to desire a family and wonder why God allowed you to have these impediments to that, I think part of the problem in our culture is that we have been brought up to believe that “you can be anything you want to be”. Well, not always.

I will never be an NBA basketball player for instance. I could mourn that fact for the rest of my life, but I think it’s better to find out what gifts God has given me and use those gifts for his kingdom…bloom where I am planted.

The married life has some lovely aspects to be sure, but it is also a very real cross. It was hard for me to understand that when I wanted to get married so badly and have kids, but now I see that and have times I just want to run away (as do my friends from time to time). But now this is where I am called and will serve whether I feel like it or not.

You are obviously a very talented individual, and I hope that you find God’s will for your life and that he will give you the grace of contentment in that plan.

God Bless!

Thank you RoseOfShannon for your kind remarks. I am no martyr. I enjoy my life, and part of that is that I am dedicated to a life of service. I have no illusions about “having it all”, and i don’t “trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries” desiring another man’s fortune. i am full of gratitude.

on the gay issue… well i get horny like any other guy. sorry if that sounds crude. my choice is not to act on that. my choice would be the same if i were an unmarried straight guy.

as for marriage and family. that is not a choice of mine. i accept everything about myself which is beyond my control, such as physical attributes or mental capacity. sexuality is just one more thing which is beyond our control. there is no point in fighting that.

i never thought that i would have a snowball’s chance in you know where of getting into medical school. when i got the acceptance letter i was expecting a rejection. my mom tells me that she was worried that i would hit my head on her ceiling i was jumping up and down so hard (i am 6’6"). i am happy with my life.

i still seek some spiritual answers. i am finding some here, and hope to continue in my good fortune.