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JHow
Guest
So, per your post, it seems pretty clear to me that a Christian confessing the second line of the Nicene creed is guilty of shirk. No?
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Aydan
Guest
hey I’m just letting you know what I have heard from Muslim scholars I don’t know I’m not Muslim so I cannot help with these contradictions.Verily, Allah*** forgives not ***that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. (Sura 4:48). This Islamic Scholar needs to read his own Qu’ran.
Typical, “oh the Sin of Shirk, can be cleared if you become Muslim”
It clearly states that Allah does not forgive the the sin of Shirk. ( but then it does)
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Aydan
Guest
that’s because it’s not the Quran I’m quoting it’s the Hadith. If you look at the web site I posted it takes you directly to it.
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Aydan
Guest
yep
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Is that the conclusion you get from reading the Qur’an?
Thought it wouldn’t be fair to just answer a question with a question so:
I do get that conclusion, yes.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Okay… Sorry but I didn’t see a web site posted. Could you PM it to me or link it again in this thread? Thanks!
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Aydan
Guest
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I’m reluctant to answer since I don’t know much about this except some opinion I have. Firstly, I’ve never heard any teacher of mine recommend to any Muslim to do this, so I’d have to say that it’s not practiced today. But moreover, it doesn’t seem to be a practice in Islam so much as a practice of one particular person. Additionally, it’s not the followers of Muhammad (saws) in general who are told to do this, but just one Bedouin man.
I can’t say for sure, but it seems like just that one man was told ot do it, and not anyone else. Perhaps it was a good reminder for him (that Bedouin) that polytheists would be in hell-fire and to remind himself that (1) he was going to die and (2) he didn’t want to die as a polytheist, he would keep doing this.
But I’ve never met anyone who did this or said to do this.
And Allah knows best.
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Aydan
Guest
Ok thank you
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scottm
Guest
Impossible – because the Nicene Creed professes monotheism. The religion of Christianity is a fiercely monotheistic as Islam is. Equally monotheistic. By definition of the very word “Christian” and by definition of the Nicene Creed itself, Christians are not guilty of shirk.
So the opening post is wrong too.
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Aydan
Guest
Okay you are completely missing the point we are talking about Islamic doctrine. From the Muslim point of view we are guilty and the second line and the rest of the Creed for that matter is indeed shirk** in the Muslim point of view.** Therefore the OP is not wrong at all.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
Aydan is right, above.
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Patrick_Joshua
Guest
Allah ***forgiveth not ***that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin most heinous indeed. – Sura 4:48
You see from Sura 4:48 we agree that Allah does not forgive the sin of Shirk, It clearly says he “forgives not” he does not say “He forgives if you become Muslim”. Forgiveness is reliant upon repentance,you cannot recieve forgiveness without repenting, and since Allah does “not forgive” the sin of Shirk, repentence is in vain.
But if you can back up your argument with quotes from the Qu’ran would be appreciated.
You see when somebody says “he forgives not” repentance is in vain, because he does not forgive. But please can you back this statement up from the Qu’ran.
You see your all argument is flawed. This is your own private intepretation, to try wiggle out of the dilemma that it is a contradiction, you try in vain without quoting or taking in account other passage which clearly stated “the sin of shirk is unforgivable”.
But also the Qu’ran claims Christians are commiting the sin of Shirk, but yet it also claims Christians shall be saved, even though Christians are not repenting from the Sin of Shirk (According to Islam, not Christian view)
Sura 5:69 clearly indicated Christians shall go to heaven by its meaning, OR regret!
Now a Christian is one who believes God is Father,Son and Holy Spirit, which according to Islam is commiting the Sin of Shirk, we do not repent yet we are saved. Yet according to your intepretation the sin of shirk is forgiveable if one becomes Muslim and repents which is a complete contradiction to Sura 5:69
The Qu’ran even further supports my argument by even claing that; Christians are commiting the Sin of Shirk and are unbelievers which according to Sura 5:69 we are believers.
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scottm
Guest
That comes from Moslems making up things about Christians. We believe X. Moslems wrongly say that we believe not X, and then accuse of sinning.
That’s uncool.
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Marc_Anthony
Guest
Hmm, IDK. I looked at the first post of this thread, at the sin of shirk, and it appears to me that Muslims can do the same thing to Christians that you have in mind here by taking Bible verses out of context.
We claim God forgives all sins. But then we learn that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgiveable sin.
So, a Muslim would claim, God forgives all sins, but Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable?
The problem with that claim, of course, is that it’s taken out of context, which a Christian would rightly point out, and then we’d get into a discussion of what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit really is.
And a Muslim would, of course, say that we’re taking those Quran verses out of context.
All I’m saying is, be careful that you’re quoting these verses in context, that’s all.
We claim God forgives all sins. But then we learn that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is an unforgiveable sin.
So, a Muslim would claim, God forgives all sins, but Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is unforgiveable?
The problem with that claim, of course, is that it’s taken out of context, which a Christian would rightly point out, and then we’d get into a discussion of what Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit really is.
And a Muslim would, of course, say that we’re taking those Quran verses out of context.
All I’m saying is, be careful that you’re quoting these verses in context, that’s all.
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Sister_Amy
Guest
I provided the context for both verses, so if you want to ignore that you do so at your peril.
I will repeat myself, since I think you didn’t read my post in the first place.
The ayah which says Allah does not forgive shirk is talking to people who are actually doing shirk, and kufr, and Allah is telling them that if they choose to persist in the shirk, then Allah will not forgive them (after they’re dead.) It’s clear because the passage directly calls out the people of the book, in this case. So we know who is being talked to.
The ayah which says Allah forgives all sins is talking to people who are already Muslim, which is clear because He call them His slaves, and singles them out to talk to them. And then reminds them that in order to be forgiven, they need to repent.
So the text here is obvious, and in my first post I did back up my statements (repeated here) with the Qur’anic proof. You just need to look the ayaat up and read them yourself.
The ayah about Christians is taken out of context a little bit, but mostly you’re just distorting it. It’s talking about Christians who believe in the Qur’an. Christians, in other words, who become Muslim. If you reject the Qur’an, then don’t pretend the Qur’an is talking about you in that ayah.
2:19
Or it is like a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder, and lightning. They put their fingers in their ears against the thunderclaps in fear of death. But Allah is encompassing of the disbelievers.
I will repeat myself, since I think you didn’t read my post in the first place.
The ayah which says Allah does not forgive shirk is talking to people who are actually doing shirk, and kufr, and Allah is telling them that if they choose to persist in the shirk, then Allah will not forgive them (after they’re dead.) It’s clear because the passage directly calls out the people of the book, in this case. So we know who is being talked to.
The ayah which says Allah forgives all sins is talking to people who are already Muslim, which is clear because He call them His slaves, and singles them out to talk to them. And then reminds them that in order to be forgiven, they need to repent.
So the text here is obvious, and in my first post I did back up my statements (repeated here) with the Qur’anic proof. You just need to look the ayaat up and read them yourself.
The ayah about Christians is taken out of context a little bit, but mostly you’re just distorting it. It’s talking about Christians who believe in the Qur’an. Christians, in other words, who become Muslim. If you reject the Qur’an, then don’t pretend the Qur’an is talking about you in that ayah.
2:19
Or it is like a rainstorm from the sky within which is darkness, thunder, and lightning. They put their fingers in their ears against the thunderclaps in fear of death. But Allah is encompassing of the disbelievers.
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Aydan
Guest
I located this booklet on shirk it gives references so I hope this will address your questions.
muslim1st.com/what-is-the-true-meaning-of-shirk-and-what-are-its-types/
muslim1st.com/what-is-the-true-meaning-of-shirk-and-what-are-its-types/
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men0wjv
Guest
I have a little time, but I still have to be brief so sorry if it comes across a little harsh, it wasn’t intended
.Like I said my friend, you need to realise the complexity of the task you’ve undertaken and an arbitrary survey is not going to correct a scholastic community that has spent 1400 years reflecting on these verses. This is the same in Christianity and why Catholicism has an advantage over these new Evangelical types because it refers to tradition for guidance, not literal outward form. So for example an arbitrary reading suggests Christian women are the source of evil, should be silent and completely subservient to men: “Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.” . I would never bring this up in a debate unless I new the verse more profoundly than my opponent.
Let us now turn to the case in hand. I’m going to use Oxford University’s publication translated by Abdel Haleem, since it is recognised as the most accessible translation by orientalist and Muslim alike.
There is scholarly consensus (ijma’) that only Islam saves and since this is the very position of Islam itself then to believe other than this is disbelief, to quote the eminent Imam Nawawi: “Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion besides Islam is an unbeliever (such as Christians), or doubts that such a person is an unbeliever, or considers their sect to be valid, is himself an unbeliever (kafir) even if he manifests Islam and believes in it.” (Rawda al-talibin, 10.70)
Why do the ulama (Muslim Scholars) say this given the perceived contradiction of the verses you have cited? Well its because you haven’t really done them justice, let us examine them more closely
‘The [Muslim] believers, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabians - all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good - will have their rewards with their Lord. No fear for them, nor will they grieve.’ [2:62]
The preceding verses are about the rebellion of the Children of Israel and so one might think that being Jewish means one is consigned to hell no matter what. This verse clarifies that anyone irrespective of their past has salvation open to them, its an invitation. Of course it mentions a condition ‘all those who believe in God and the Last Day and do good’ which is Islam. Whilst the verse is brief it articulates the first article of faith and the last, which is a figure of speech for all and the doing of good is meaning putting it into practice. Just to clarify this verse again, let us look at emphatically (Arabic is important here) clear rejections of a belief in perennialism:
“By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell” [Muslim, Baghawi]
'If anyone seeks a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him: he will be one of the losers in the Hereafter [3:85]
On a side point this does not mean all non Muslims are in hell necessarily since - as is also implicit from the above hadith - the Qur’an states: ‘Nor do We punish until We have sent a messenger’ [17:15]. In other words the inhabitants of hell are the ones who have had a clear (not even distorted) message and consciously rejected it. Those that don’t receive a clear (or even distorted) message are innocent no matter what they do, but this is through Divine Amnesty of their ignorance and not their own non Islamic religion.
Don’t think there is any need to mention (5:82) & (61:14) since a similar argument can be put forth (in fact I don’t know how you possibly could interpret these to mean Christian salvation from a Muslim perspective).
Unfortunately I have to go now, but I will see if I can get a moment to answer the rest
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
Doesn’t islam sins against the Holy Spirit by denying Divinity of Jesus Christ?
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men0wjv
Guest
Actually reading through the previous posts suggests that the question has been answered. As Sister Amy said the ‘all’ is subject to repentance. On the Day of Judgment we believe that faith will ultimately save us by God’s grace, however we may have to be purged of sin first, for those sins we didn’t repent from. Only those who do not have faith will remain in the fire, as the following suggests: “Whoever says ‘There is no god but Allah’ and has a barley-corn’s weight of good in his heart will come out of the Fire. Whoever says ‘There is no god but Allah’ and has a wheat-grain’s weight of good in his heart will come out of the Fire. Whoever says ‘There is no god but Allah’ and has a atom’s weight of good in his heart will come out of the Fire.” [Bukhari]
Though maybe I can help?
The hadith you mention and quoted from the website is as follows:
Salem related that his father said: A Bedouin came to the Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah my father used to maintain the ties of kinship, and he was so, and he was so. So where is he? He said: In Hell-fire. He said: It was as if that disturbed him, so he said: O Messenger of Allah, where, then, is your father? The Messenger of Allah then said: Wherever you pass by the grave of a polytheist give him tidings of Hell-fire. He said: The Bedouin later accepted Islam and said:The Messenger of Allah has given me an assignment. I would not pass by the grave of a Kãfir except that I would give him tidings of Hell-fire. [Tirmidhi]
Firstly we need to know that the website is a Salafi one and so may have been tampered with. It is unlikely that it is not a hadith, but the translation may be deliberately pointing one in a certain direction, nor does it mention other narrations of the same event (if they were any)
Secondly we need to ask is this a general rule or did it just apply to the Bedouin. If I say to my kids on a rainy day: ‘don’t go outside,’ a few hundred years pass by and then someone tries to ascertain what I meant and decides that I gave an absolute prohibition for all mankind would clearly be wrong. The wording suggest specificity rather than generality. There is extra information about the Bedouin being sad that his father’s good deeds hadn’t saved, that he later converted and then that he had this personal mission. If general, why this extra information? Strange though it may seem, the advice from Muhammad (pbuh) brought the Bedouin to Islam, because he realised that without faith good actions are futile. In terms of legally, no precedent can be taken that Muslims should do this, but it is also clear that it is not impermissible.
Thirdly we need to see are there any other evidences? A general instruction from Muhammad (pbuh) to the whole Muslim community was: "The believer is not one who slanders, curses or uses vulgarity (Tirmidhi). We can see why Sister Amy or most other Muslims wouldn’t have learnt the first hadith since it is a special case and not in keeping with the character of a Muslim.
Lastly we refer the the scholarly tradition and ask what did they say? Well if we refer to the pivotal work on Islamic Jurisprudence Radd al Mukhtar by the eminent ibn A’bideen we see that: it is permitted to curse the unbelievers and sinful in general, though not specifically, except those about whom it is certainly known that they died in a state of disbelief. He further adds that ‘The reality of cursing (la`n) is to distance from Mercy, which cannot be for other than an unbeliever (kafir).’ Which I think sums it up.
On a side point one may say that still seems a little harsh and OK I empathise (NOTE: only permissible not recommended or obligatory!) but then burning eternally is God’s judgment so in some ways it is simply stating the truth, and as the first hadith shows that by cursing the unbelievers it serves as a reminder that unless one change their ways before the grave eternal punishment awaits.
Hope that helps (still in a rush - sorry)
Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m not Sister Amy
Though maybe I can help?The hadith you mention and quoted from the website is as follows:
Salem related that his father said: A Bedouin came to the Prophet and said: O Messenger of Allah my father used to maintain the ties of kinship, and he was so, and he was so. So where is he? He said: In Hell-fire. He said: It was as if that disturbed him, so he said: O Messenger of Allah, where, then, is your father? The Messenger of Allah then said: Wherever you pass by the grave of a polytheist give him tidings of Hell-fire. He said: The Bedouin later accepted Islam and said:The Messenger of Allah has given me an assignment. I would not pass by the grave of a Kãfir except that I would give him tidings of Hell-fire. [Tirmidhi]
Firstly we need to know that the website is a Salafi one and so may have been tampered with. It is unlikely that it is not a hadith, but the translation may be deliberately pointing one in a certain direction, nor does it mention other narrations of the same event (if they were any)
Secondly we need to ask is this a general rule or did it just apply to the Bedouin. If I say to my kids on a rainy day: ‘don’t go outside,’ a few hundred years pass by and then someone tries to ascertain what I meant and decides that I gave an absolute prohibition for all mankind would clearly be wrong. The wording suggest specificity rather than generality. There is extra information about the Bedouin being sad that his father’s good deeds hadn’t saved, that he later converted and then that he had this personal mission. If general, why this extra information? Strange though it may seem, the advice from Muhammad (pbuh) brought the Bedouin to Islam, because he realised that without faith good actions are futile. In terms of legally, no precedent can be taken that Muslims should do this, but it is also clear that it is not impermissible.
Thirdly we need to see are there any other evidences? A general instruction from Muhammad (pbuh) to the whole Muslim community was: "The believer is not one who slanders, curses or uses vulgarity (Tirmidhi). We can see why Sister Amy or most other Muslims wouldn’t have learnt the first hadith since it is a special case and not in keeping with the character of a Muslim.
Lastly we refer the the scholarly tradition and ask what did they say? Well if we refer to the pivotal work on Islamic Jurisprudence Radd al Mukhtar by the eminent ibn A’bideen we see that: it is permitted to curse the unbelievers and sinful in general, though not specifically, except those about whom it is certainly known that they died in a state of disbelief. He further adds that ‘The reality of cursing (la`n) is to distance from Mercy, which cannot be for other than an unbeliever (kafir).’ Which I think sums it up.
On a side point one may say that still seems a little harsh and OK I empathise (NOTE: only permissible not recommended or obligatory!) but then burning eternally is God’s judgment so in some ways it is simply stating the truth, and as the first hadith shows that by cursing the unbelievers it serves as a reminder that unless one change their ways before the grave eternal punishment awaits.
Hope that helps
(still in a rush - sorry)- Status