The sin of taking away someones livelyhood

[boppaid]

And as a result, the price of goods and services are higher. The general public pays for the union workers’ artificially-inflated wages.

As people in the highly-unionized automobile industry are finding out. They cheated the rest of us and in the process killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

It’s not the unions that are doing it, but the inability for the automakers to complete globally. Yes, they can’t lower wages because of unions, that is true. But other countries provide health insurance benefits in many cases at government cost. That is ONE reason the Big 3 can’t compete. Further, the wages they pay are extremely low in other countries, and would hardly sustain a family here in America.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I get what you’re saying, but it’s simply not accurate. They are giving people in my husbands trade $10.00 more per hour in return plus better benefits and retirement (something else not offered to anyone in my husband’s trade in non-union states…believe me…we tried to find something as we wanted to move to a non-union state. We couldn’t afford to.)

So it is to your husband’s benefit to join the union?

Does you husband have the option of not paying union dues? If so, why? If it’s to his benefit to join the union, why does he have to be forced?

That may be true, but without the union my family cannot afford to pay even the lower price for goods and services.

And many another family cannot afford to pay the higher price for goods and services.

Whether it’s an overcharge or not is a matter of opinion.

Not to the other, less priviliged people who have to pay it!!

And the opinion rests on whether or not you think the workers deserve their pay scale. I see how hard my husband works, and I believe with all my heart that he, and others like him, deserve the higher wage, good benefits, and retirement fund.

A thing, including an hour of labor, is worth what a willing buyer will offer and a willing seller will accept. It’s an agreement reached between buyer and seller, and no one else has any business involving himself in that transaction.

So if you think workers deserve more, why don’t you become the buyer? Why don’t you pay them more, instead of expecting everyone else who’s struggling to make ends meet bear that burden?

 

[boppaid]

So it is to your husband’s benefit to join the union?

yes

Does you husband have the option of not paying union dues? If so, why? If it’s to his benefit to join the union, why does he have to be forced?

He has the option of working for a non-union shop. He cannot, however, work for a union shop and not pay dues. He CHOOSES the union shop, however, because it’s too difficult to support a family non-union in this area.

And many another family cannot afford to pay the higher price for goods and services.

So that aspect is unfortunately a wash then. Unions are good for some people to afford things, and not for others. Since that’s the case, we need to look at the benefit that people should be paid a dignified wage that allows them to support their families when they are skilled and qualified in that field.

A thing, including an hour of labor, is worth what a willing buyer will offer and a willing seller will accept. It’s an agreement reached between buyer and seller, and no one else has any business involving himself in that transaction.

However without the unions, workers would not be paid enough to support their families, nor would they have health insurance (at least in my husband’s field). All non-union shops pay the floorlayers as independant contractors, rather than employees, to avoid paying any type of benefit. Union shops are not allowed to do this. There is obviously a benefit to them, too, wouldn’t you say? They don’t have to be a union shop. There are many non-union shops in this state. However, the union shops get the work from the big corporations. (like Sears, Kmart, etc.) as well as government jobs like schools, gov’t buildings, etc. So it is not only in the employee’s best interest to be union, but also the company’s (at least in my area, and in my husband’s trade).

So if you think workers deserve more, why don’t you become the buyer? Why don’t you pay them more, instead of expecting everyone else who’s struggling to make ends meet bear that burden?

Why don’t I become the buyer? I don’t understand. I can’t afford to pay more, because even at my husband’s union pay we live paycheck to paycheck. Can you imagine how we’d live at $10 less per hour??

 

[Kevin42]

Do customers have any obligations to businesses? If you’ve been going to Henry’s Hardware for years and a Home Depot opens up, is it right for you to “outsource” your business (i.e. Henry’s job) just to save a few buck?

Is it right for everyone to continue to shop at Henry’s and deprive the people working at the Home Depot their “livelihood”?

 

[vern_humphrey]

yes He has the option of working for a non-union shop. He cannot, however, work for a union shop and not pay dues. He CHOOSES the union shop, however, because it’s too difficult to support a family non-union in this area.

Then why is it necessary to force him to pay dues? If the union is as good as you say, eveyone should be willing to voluntarily pay their dues.

So that aspect is unfortunately a wash then. Unions are good for some people to afford things, and not for others.

So it’s okay to screw everyone else, as long as the union members benefit?

Since that’s the case, we need to look at the benefit that people should be paid a dignified wage that allows them to support their families when they are skilled and qualified in that field.

Which would be a lot easier if some people weren’t hogging everything, driving up prices and shutting people out of jobs.

However without the unions, workers would not be paid enough to support their families, nor would they have health insurance (at least in my husband’s field).

Funny how this concern doesn’t extend to the people who have to pay higher prices because of the union.

All non-union shops pay the floorlayers as independant contractors, rather than employees, to avoid paying any type of benefit. Union shops are not allowed to do this. There is obviously a benefit to them, too, wouldn’t you say?

And yet your husband has no choice – to keep his job, he must pay union dues.

They don’t have to be a union shop. There are many non-union shops in this state. However, the union shops get the work from the big corporations. (like Sears, Kmart, etc.) as well as government jobs like schools, gov’t buildings, etc. So it is not only in the employee’s best interest to be union, but also the company’s (at least in my area, and in my husband’s trade).

Because laws favor the unions – this would be like General Motors getting a law passed that says you have to buy a Chevrolet, even if you don’t want one.

And in the meantime, everyone else gets the shaft – higher prices due to inflated labor costs and union inefficiency.

Why don’t I become the buyer? I don’t understand. I can’t afford to pay more, because even at my husband’s union pay we live paycheck to paycheck. Can you imagine how we’d live at $10 less per hour??

Aha! Now it comes out! You can’t be expected to pay those higher labor prices, but everyone else – even those who make less than you do – should be forced to pay them!

 

[boppaid]

Then why is it necessary to force him to pay dues? If the union is as good as you say, eveyone should be willing to voluntarily pay their dues.

He chooses to work for a union shop and pay dues. He chooses that. He could easily go work somewhere non-union. However, the dues pay the union to collectively represent him. They also pay for free legal services, and habitat for humanity homes the union builds. Further, when we add the cost of the union dues against the salary he’d make non-union, we make out MUCH better unionized. So, that’s the reason he CHOOSES to work union. He is not forced to.

So it’s okay to screw everyone else, as long as the union members benefit?

I could also ask if it’s okay to screw people like myfamily as long as other people benefit?

Which would be a lot easier if some people weren’t hogging everything, driving up prices and shutting people out of jobs.

How is someone being paid a just salary, after 4 years of apprenticeship and trade school, that can feed their family “hogging everything”? Do you complain about the CEOs who “hog everything”? What is hogging? Everyone should be paid fairly. Unfortunately, in the blue collar field, without unions that often doesn’t happen.

Funny how this concern doesn’t extend to the people who have to pay higher prices because of the union.

And funny that your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families by being paid low wages for skilled trades. Honestly, I’m not trying to be disrespectful at all. It does work both ways, though.

And yet your husband has no choice – to keep his job, he must pay union dues.

You keep saying my husband has no choice. He does. Many people in our area do the same job he does non-union. He chooses to go with the union.

And in the meantime, everyone else gets the shaft – higher prices due to inflated labor costs and union inefficiency.

So you propose those workers who deserve good pay get the shaft instead?

Aha! Now it comes out! You can’t be expected to pay those higher labor prices, but everyone else – even those who make less than you do – should be forced to pay them!

What higher prices are you talking about? I thought you meant you wanted me to start a company and pay higher wages. I think I misunderstood you. Could you clarify?

 

[vern_humphrey]

He chooses to work for a union shop and pay dues. He chooses that. He could easily go work somewhere non-union. However, the dues pay the union to collectively represent him. They also pay for free legal services, and habitat for humanity homes the union builds. Further, when we add the cost of the union dues against the salary he’d make non-union, we make out MUCH better unionized. So, that’s the reason he CHOOSES to work union. He is not forced to.

So why are union dues mandatory? That’s a kick-back, pure and simple.

I could also ask if it’s okay to screw people like myfamily as long as other people benefit?

The people who are doing the screwing are those who pay kickbacks to get inflated wages, and everyone else is stuck with higher prices.

How is someone being paid a just salary, after 4 years of apprenticeship and trade school, that can feed their family “hogging everything”?

Because those wages are not set by the marketplace. You, yourself said your husband gets more than other workers doing the same job, didn’t you?

Youi can’t have it both ways, you know. You can’t brag about getting more than the economic value of his work on the one hand, and say you’re not taking more than your share on the other.

Do you complain about the CEOs who “hog everything”? What is hogging? Everyone should be paid fairly. Unfortunately, in the blue collar field, without unions that often doesn’t happen.

Absolutely. Everyone should be paid based on the market value of their labor and skills – for some workers to be paid much more than others for the same work is unfair.

And funny that your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families by being paid low wages for skilled trades. Honestly, I’m not trying to be disrespectful at all. It does work both ways, though.

It’s funny that your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families because of the higher prices they must pay for goods and services just so a favored few can get a lot more than other workers get for the same skills and work.

You keep saying my husband has no choice. He does. Many people in our area do the same job he does non-union. He chooses to go with the union.

So why are the dues mandatory? He has a good job by virtue of paying a kick-back. He stops paying that kick-back, and he loses the job.

So you propose those workers who deserve good pay get the shaft instead?

I propose those favored few who get more than the going rate share with those other workers.

What higher prices are you talking about? I thought you meant you wanted me to start a company and pay higher wages. I think I misunderstood you. Could you clarify?

That would be the ideal – start a company and pay workers what you think they should receive.

But if you can’t do that, split all that extra money with those less fortunate. Surely you could live with a mere 10% more than the average worker in your husband’s trade – so give other workers the rest.

In other words, do what you want everyone else to do – pay your share!!

 

[boppaid]

So why are union dues mandatory? That’s a kick-back, pure and simple.

I’ve never heard of memberships dues that weren’t mandatory. SHRUG I mean, if you belong to an organization that charges dues, wouldn’t they be mandatory?

The people who are doing the screwing are those who pay kickbacks to get inflated wages, and everyone else is stuck with higher prices.

Actually, while I understand that that’s your opinion, please understand that in my opinion, the people doing the screwing are those who try to get rid of unions and screw the blue collar worker forced to work without retirement, health care, or a decent salary. I guess we’re at an “agree to disagree” impasse here.

Because those wages are not set by the marketplace. You, yourself said your husband gets more than other workers doing the same job, didn’t you?

Yes, I did. And he gets that living wage because he chooses to belong to an organzatino that helps him obtain this.

Youi can’t have it both ways, you know. You can’t brag about getting more than the economic value of his work on the one hand, and say you’re not taking more than your share on the other.

I’m not taking more than my share. His shop does not HAVE to be union. They choose to be union because they want the sweeter deals…the big clients who prefer to use union construction. It goes both ways.

Absolutely. Everyone should be paid based on the market value of their labor and skills – for some workers to be paid much more than others for the same work is unfair.

Likewise, for some workers to be paid less than they deserve, with years of apprenticeship & schooling, because some fat cat CEO is cheap, is also unfair. Good thing unions are there to protect people like him.

It’s funny that your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families because of the higher prices they must pay for goods and services just so a favored few can get a lot more than other workers get for the same skills and work.

And it’s funny your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families because they aren’t earning health insurance, retirement benefits, and a jsut wage. And, no, I will not rely on a company to determine what they think the job is worth. The market as the driving force of wages isn’t always right. THere is always cheaper labor somewhere. Heck, illegal immigrants will do the work DIRT cheap, at or under minimum wage. Does that mean that’s all skilled workers shoul dbe paid?

So why are the dues mandatory? He has a good job by virtue of paying a kick-back. He stops paying that kick-back, and he loses the job.

Actually, no. Some shops have a union division and a non-union division here. My husband always chose the union division to get his benefits. Additionally, it is not a kick back. It is membership dues. You’re paying for representation. Is a lawyer charging kickbacks when you hire them to represent you? Well, the union members pay dues to have representation.

But if you can’t do that, split all that extra money with those less fortunate. Surely you could live with a mere 10% more than the average worker in your husband’s trade – so give other workers the rest.[/qutoe]

Unfortunately there is no EXTRA money. We, as I said, struggle paycheck to paycheck on what he makes now. That’s why I cannot imagine him getting paid any less than he does now.
vern humphrey;2032631:

In other words, do what you want everyone else to do – pay your share!!

I take offense to that. I pay my taxes, I pay my share. You seem to think I owe more than my share. I think maybe someone feels undervalued and has a chip on their shoulder.

 

[vern_humphrey]

I’ve never heard of memberships dues that weren’t mandatory. SHRUG I mean, if you belong to an organization that charges dues, wouldn’t they be mandatory?

So let him quit that organization and see what happens.

It’s a kick-back. He has to pay to keep his job.

Actually, while I understand that that’s your opinion, please understand that in my opinion, the people doing the screwing are those who try to get rid of unions and screw the blue collar worker forced to work without retirement, health care, or a decent salary. I guess we’re at an “agree to disagree” impasse here.

Since unions are a tiny minority, and the people being screwed by them are the vast majority, that doesn’t hold water.

Yes, I did. And he gets that living wage because he chooses to belong to an organzatino that helps him obtain this.

He chooses to pay a kick-back, else he would not have the job. And everyone else pays higher prices as a result.

I’m not taking more than my share. His shop does not HAVE to be union. They choose to be union because they want the sweeter deals…the big clients who prefer to use union construction. It goes both ways.

And to blazes with the majority of Americans who pay higher prices, eh?

Likewise, for some workers to be paid less than they deserve, with years of apprenticeship & schooling, because some fat cat CEO is cheap, is also unfair. Good thing unions are there to protect people like him.

A thing is worth what a willing buyer will offer, and a willing seller will accept.

If someone takes a job, he and the boss have come to an agreement as to what his labor is worth.

Note that I offered you the option of making up the difference between what someone is paid and what you think they should be paid, and you declined.

And it’s funny your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families because they aren’t earning health insurance, retirement benefits, and a jsut wage.

And it’s funny your concern doesn’t extend to the people who cannot afford to support their families because someone else has unfairly inflated the price of goods and services.

And, no, I will not rely on a company to determine what they think the job is worth. The market as the driving force of wages isn’t always right.

And a small minority making way more than everyone else doing the same work, and driving up prices isn’t right, either.

Nor is having to pay a kick-back to get and keep a job right.

THere is always cheaper labor somewhere. Heck, illegal immigrants will do the work DIRT cheap, at or under minimum wage. Does that mean that’s all skilled workers shoul dbe paid?

One of the reasons we have so many illegal immigrants is that union workers drove up the cost of labor beyond the point where it is economically supportable.

Actually, no. Some shops have a union division and a non-union division here. My husband always chose the union division to get his benefits. Additionally, it is not a kick back.

Yes, it is. If you have to pay money to get and keep a job, that’s a kick-back.

It is membership dues. You’re paying for representation. Is a lawyer charging kickbacks when you hire them to represent you? Well, the union members pay dues to have representation.

Your lawyer doesn’t prevent you from getting a job, nor does he get you kicked out of your job if you stop paying him.

But if you can’t do that, split all that extra money with those less fortunate. Surely you could live with a mere 10% more than the average worker in your husband’s trade – so give other workers the rest.[/qutoe]
boppaid;2032723:

Unfortunately there is no EXTRA money. We, as I said, struggle paycheck to paycheck on what he makes now. That’s why I cannot imagine him getting paid any less than he does now.

Funny how those who make less than you do manage to struggle by. And even funnier, how you’re willing to inflate prices for them.

I take offense to that. I pay my taxes, I pay my share. You seem to think I owe more than my share.

And you seem to think you owe less than your share. You brag that your husband makes more than other people who have identical skills and do the indentical job – yet you’re incensed by the idea that you should share with those other people.

I think maybe someone feels undervalued and has a chip on their shoulder.

Undervalued? For what? I worked hard, saved and invested, and retired at 55.

And I did it without ever paying a kick-back to any union, too.

 

[boppaid]

So let him quit that organization and see what happens.

It’s a kick-back. He has to pay to keep his job.

Have you ever been a member of an organization or club? Most have membership dues. Are you opposed to those also?

And, if he chooses to quit a union shop, he would go to a non-union one. He CHOOSES union. If he were to stop paying dues, thus discontinuing the representation he had been paying them for, then they stop representing him, and he has to work in a non-union shop. Why should a non-paying member receive the same membership benefits as a paying member? I guess I’m not really seeing what you’re getting at.

Since unions are a tiny minority, and the people being screwed by them are the vast majority, that doesn’t hold water.

I don’t agree with your opinion here. I’ve already stated why, so for sake of time, (& boring your) I won’t repeat myself.

He chooses to pay a kick-back, else he would not have the job. And everyone else pays higher prices as a result.

How are membership dues to an organization a kick back? I think you’re confused, no disrepect intended.

If someone takes a job, he and the boss have come to an agreement as to what his labor is worth.

So you are in favor of illegal immigrants being paid $4/hour under the table while our own citizens get the shaft? After all, its he and his boss and their agreement that’s none of anyone’s business, right?

Note that I offered you the option of making up the difference between what someone is paid and what you think they should be paid, and you declined.

I declined because I simply don’t have the funds. Heck, I had to borrow money so my son can play baseball this spring. Maybe our membership dues need to be raised so that they can try to get us higher wages and then I can afford more. Seriously, though, this is proving my point. My husband makes approx $10 more per hour than his non-union counterparts, and we still are struggling to raise our tiny 4 person family. My heart cries for those making non-union wages, because I cannot imagine how difficult it is for them.

Yes, it is. If you have to pay money to get and keep a job, that’s a kick-back.

But Vern, you’re not paying to keep your job…you’re paying for representation. And anyone reaping the benefits of that representation needs to pay.

Your lawyer doesn’t prevent you from getting a job, nor does he get you kicked out of your job if you stop paying him.

My husband is at a union shop by choice. You seem to keep forgetting that. There are just as many non-union shops in our area too. (probably moreso). No one has a gun to his head. He could work union or non-union.

Funny how those who make less than you do manage to struggle by. And even funnier, how you’re willing to inflate prices for them.

Do they? Have you checked out the bankruptsy stats? The welfare stats? The amount of people on WIC? The families who have to stick their kids in daycare for 10=12 hours a day because mom and dad are working between the two of them 2-3 jobs? Are they managing? Doesn’t your heart break for them? Mine does. There was a time my husband was non-union, and we had to use credit cards to pay for groceries every.single.week. Were we “managing”?

And you seem to think you owe less than your share. You brag that your husband makes more than other people who have identical skills and do the indentical job – yet you’re incensed by the idea that you should share with those other people.

Oh, I’m not incensed by the idea. Could you please indicate to me where it seems I appear “incensed”? I simply said I don’t have the funds.

Undervalued? For what? I worked hard, saved and invested, and retired at 55.

That’s wonderful. They don’t pay the non-union, self-employed contractors enough to save a dime. You were very lucky.

 

[boppaid]

You know, Vern, I see how uncharitable we are being with each other, and I feel that this isn’t a profitable discussion. It is not going anywhere. You have your opinions, and i have mine. No one’s changing, and we both think the other is way off base. Bantering back and forth, and insinuating insults on a Christian board is not getting us anywhere. I am not going to continue this discussion, because I feel it is wrong. Thank you for sharing your views with me, though.

In Jesus,

 

[vern_humphrey]

You know, Vern, I see how uncharitable we are being with each other, and I feel that this isn’t a profitable discussion. It is not going anywhere. You have your opinions, and i have mine. No one’s changing, and we both think the other is way off base. Bantering back and forth, and insinuating insults on a Christian board is not getting us anywhere. I am not going to continue this discussion, because I feel it is wrong. Thank you for sharing your views with me, though.

In Jesus,

Thank you and God Bless.

 

[boppaid]

…and I hope there are no hard feelings…

 

[vern_humphrey]

…and I hope there are no hard feelings…

Why should there be?

God Bless.