The slow suicide of the Church in the Holy Land

[Francine_Peters]

Some bad demographic news to temper the holiday cheer:

As of December 2007, only 152,000 Christians live in the Holy Land and they comprise 2.1 percent of the total population. The number of births per woman stands at 2.3 for Christians, while among Muslims, 4.5. In Bethlehem Christians have shrunk from 85 percent of the population in 1948 to around 15 percent today.

The average number of births for Jewish women is 2.7. If trends continue, then long before the Holy Land is taken over by the Muslims there will be almost no Christians there. Tourists to the holy sites will be greeted by proprietors who attend mosque.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

Some bad demographic news to temper the holiday cheer:

As of December 2007, only 152,000 Christians live in the Holy Land and they comprise 2.1 percent of the total population. The number of births per woman stands at 2.3 for Christians, while among Muslims, 4.5. In Bethlehem Christians have shrunk from 85 percent of the population in 1948 to around 15 percent today.

The average number of births for Jewish women is 2.7. If trends continue, then long before the Holy Land is taken over by the Muslims there will be almost no Christians there. Tourists to the holy sites will be greeted by proprietors who attend mosque.

Perhaps we should start a Catholic Aliyah

 

[Ridgerunner]

Living under the constant threat of death, when one is not protected by anyone, has a certain persuasive power to cause one to move elsewhere.

Resources of every kind pour into the hands of the killers, whose religioin teaches them that murder of “infidels” is virtuous, while the Christians in the Holy Land receive essentially no support of any kind from anyone. Even the “terrible Turk” left Christians largely alone back when the Christian world really was Christian, and had the will to protect other Christians.

Without powerful external dissuasion, Islam never fails to meet one’s worst expectations.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Living under the constant threat of death, when one is not protected by anyone, has a certain persuasive power to cause one to move elsewhere.

Resources of every kind pour into the hands of the killers, whose religioin teaches them that murder of “infidels” is virtuous, while the Christians in the Holy Land receive essentially no support of any kind from anyone. Even the “terrible Turk” left Christians largely alone back when the Christian world really was Christian, and had the will to protect other Christians.

Without powerful external dissuasion, Islam never fails to meet one’s worst expectations.

The Turks, who were Muslims, served as a protecting power in the Holy Land. They did a pretty good job.

That job has now fallen to the Israelis, who don’t seem sad to see the Christians go.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The Turks, who were Muslims, served as a protecting power in the Holy Land. They did a pretty good job.

That job has now fallen to the Israelis, who don’t seem sad to see the Christians go.

I would question that. Certainly, the Isarelis worked with Christian militias in south Lebanon over an extended period of time. However, the Israelis did abandon them in the end. But I tend to doubt Israel really has the power to protect Christians in Palestine. It has enough trouble trying to protect Jews, and often doesn’t succeed in that. One thing the Turks were willing to do was to stoop to extreme cruelty in oppressing subject peoples. The Israelis can’t do that, because the wordwide media is almost exclusively anti-semitic, and anything Israel does that’s harsh is made into a propaganda vehicle.

 

[wifeandmomoftwo]

I would question that. Certainly, the Isarelis worked with Christian militias in south Lebanon over an extended period of time. However, the Israelis did abandon them in the end. But I tend to doubt Israel really has the power to protect Christians in Palestine. It has enough trouble trying to protect Jews, and often doesn’t succeed in that. One thing the Turks were willing to do was to stoop to extreme cruelty in oppressing subject peoples. The Israelis can’t do that, because the wordwide media is almost exclusively anti-semitic, and anything Israel does that’s harsh is made into a propaganda vehicle.

Oh please! Nobody has to agree with Israel and what they are doing or did. And in not agreeing with them we are NOT anti-semitic!

 

[vern_humphrey]

I would question that. Certainly, the Isarelis worked with Christian militias in south Lebanon over an extended period of time. However, the Israelis did abandon them in the end.

So they cynically used and abandoned the Christians of Lebanon, but they would never do that to the Christians of Palestine?

But I tend to doubt Israel really has the power to protect Christians in Palestine. It has enough trouble trying to protect Jews, and often doesn’t succeed in that. One thing the Turks were willing to do was to stoop to extreme cruelty in oppressing subject peoples. The Israelis can’t do that, because the wordwide media is almost exclusively anti-semitic, and anything Israel does that’s harsh is made into a propaganda vehicle.

As we used to say in the Infantry, the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters.

 

[Ridgerunner]

So they cynically used and abandoned the Christians of Lebanon, but they would never do that to the Christians of Palestine? ** Likely they would if they perceived their survival depended on it. I, myself, hated it when the Israelis pulled out of south Lebanon. But it must be admitted that the “Christian world” did not step into the vacuum. Now Hezbollah controls the area, and some Christian Lebanese are allied with it. **

As we used to say in the Infantry, the maximum effective range of an excuse is zero meters.

Interesting saying. But Christians should not excuse their own falure to intervene to protect Christians by criticizing Jews for failing to do it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Interesting saying. But Christians should not excuse their own falure to intervene to protect Christians by criticizing Jews for failing to do it.

Christians do not control the land – the Israelis do. It is their responsibility to protect all the people in the territory under their control.

 

[drafdog]

I’m not entirely certain what the religious value of a piece of real estate may be. When speaking of the “Holy Land” you have an area inhabited by three major religious groups who are antagonistic to one another. The friction in the area, the pressure to have one or another group leave the area, pressures to convert to another of the players’ faiths, etc. is doomed to continue indefinitely. The basic problem of the middle east is that the three major religious groups consider each of the others to be minimally apostates and more probably heretics. The worst offender may be the Catholic Church whose attitude has for centuries been that error has no rights (or protections).
I am in favor of leaving the land to the Israelis (nowhere in scripture is God’s gift of the land of Israel retracted) and getting out of it entirely. Let the local churches survive or fail on their own strengths. We really don’t need a piece of land in order to pray.

Matthew

 

[a_cermak]

Lebanon was fouled up beyond repair by their Constitution, left by the lovely French. It relied on snapshot demographics to determine which of what group would be which office and didn’t account for population change over time. As a result, the Shiites (who had the fastest growth rate) got cheated as their population became the majority but weren’t given equal representation. At the time of the civil war, the seats in Parliament were 6:5 tilted toward Christians even though the Marionites by that time had become a large minority. Today, the ratio is half and half.

So I wouldn’t say taking the Marionites side in the Lebanese Civil War was a part of defending Christianity. I seriously doubt that the Israelis viewed it that way, they were simply trying to keep the friendliest regime in power they could on their frontier.

The Christians in Palestine are in a rough spot. They are harmed by the actions of the Israeli government just the same as all the Palestinians are, yet are looked at with suspicion by their fellow Palestinian Muslims.

 

[Ridgerunner]

The worst offender may be the Catholic Church whose attitude has for centuries been that error has no rights (or protections). And yet, the only places on earth where people have any rights worth talking about are those whose cultural and legal heritage grew out of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I think you might be imbibing a bit richly of the secular humanist propaganda. You are unaware of the 100 million murdered in the 20th century alone by anti-religion?
I am in favor of leaving the land to the Israelis (nowhere in scripture is God’s gift of the land of Israel retracted) and getting out of it entirely. Let the local churches survive or fail on their own strengths.** The problem is the murderousness of Muslim leaders. You would abandon the Christians of Palestine to it. You’re not alone in that, of course, as it seems to be exactly what the world is doing. Still, I agree with you in that Christians fare much better under Israeli governance than under Muslim governance.** We really don’t need a piece of land in order to pray.

Matthew