The so-called apostasy

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So I was talking to my mormon friend today about religions and he told me that when he was coverting they had him study the history of the catholic church so that he could learn about how the church went into apostacy. Curious, of course, I asked “such as?” And he went on to explain about how the apostles didn’t pass on the priesthood, and how the Pope didn’t really have authority, if he did he wouldn’t have to have a college of cardinals to vote with him on matters of the church. Of course I asked him to elaborate. He explained that if the church hadn’t been in apostasy they wouldn’t have had to vote on the books of the bible. If they weren’t in apostasy God would have spoken to them and told them exactly what was supposed to be in the bible. He explained that God told Joe Smith exactly what should be in the book of mormon and helped to show him what the errors in the bible were.

Of course I defended the faith with points about the apostles passing on the priest hood and that all of our priests have been ordained from bishop to bishop via laying on of hands for centuries. And I explained that God did speak to the heads of the church regarding the bible via the Holy Spirit, in order to determine what were inspired works, etc. That it wasn’t a matter of democratic decision, but a descernent of the truth through the Holy Spirit.

I didn’t really push the matter or get into an argument about it. I did drop in a couple of quips about the bible and scripture staying the same for catholics, while God’s supposed ‘word’ through Joe Smith changing many, many times in the last 150ish years. Which he seemed to kinda pass over. I try not to get into a “you’re wrong, I’m right” argument with him about his faith, we always try to keep it civil. And we kinda left it at that.

Two thoughts I had though from the discussion. One, I would like to know what exactly the process of putting the bible together was and what went on then. I need some resources to research that topic. Any helps, links, ideas?

Second, it occurred to me that he did not regard the bible with the same respect and reverence that he did the book of mormon. He obviously thought it was a better set of “scriptures” since it came directly from God, supposedly. And that he sorta gave a feeling of doubting some of the bible because it was “put together by apostasized christians that voted on it” instead of being written directly by God. It was definitely an interesting insight.
 
First off, the Book of Mormon has passages that are almost verbatim to the King James Version of the Holy Bible. With that said, Mormons use the King James Bible as an inspired resource. If the Church fell into apostasy, who maintained these Sacred Scriptures for centuries before Joseph Smith came into existance?? And in 1610 when the King James version was translated who was it translated by since there was no valid Church?? Must have fallen from the sky…:confused:
 
You might want to ask you friend why Joseph Smith couldn’t reproduce the original 116 pages that he wrote down:

As Mormon historian Ivan J. Barrett recounts it, the first 116 pages of English transcript, taken down by the scribe Martin Harris at Smith’s dictation, were lost irretrievably after Harris took them home to show to his skeptical wife. Mrs. Harris apparently lost, destroyed, or concealed the manuscript. She refused to disclose what had happened to it, and Harris returned empty-handed to the furious prophet. Smith’s behavior in the face of this setback is exactly what we should expect from a none-too-subtle hoaxer who has claimed loudly to possess an infallible, supernatural translating technique and now sees that he risks exposure by being unable to reproduce the original translation.

Does he start all over again, humbly trusting in the power of God to vindicate the truth of his claims? Not at all. He receives yet another “revelation” from God commanding him not to retranslate the first part, because “Satan” has inspired “thieves” to alter the stolen manuscript. If he produces another true and identical version of the first l 16 pages, they will publish their “altered” version as the original in order to discredit him.

Fortunately, it turns out that the missing portion can be dispensed with anyway: The Lord “reveals” that it is only an “abridgement” by the ancient historian Mormon of a fuller narrative written by the still-earlier patriarch Nephi. Nephi’s plates are also conveniently there in Joseph’s collection, so he translates them instead (Barrett, Joseph Smith and the Restoration: A History of the Church to 1846, pp.84–87).

If Smith had been sincere in claiming the ability to produce another identical translation of “Mormon’s abridgement,” he would not have been frightened to do so.

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0305fea4.asp
 
Here’s a pretty good site that describes the process:
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham4.html

For convenience sake I will hit some of the highlights here.

"Now we know that the Gospels and Epistles of the New Testament were
read aloud to the congregations of Christians that met on the first
day of the week for Holy Mass (just as they are still among
ourselves), one Gospel here, another there; one Epistle of St Paul in
one place, another in another; all scattered about in various parts of
the world where there were bodies of Christians.

It is a fact of history that the Council of Carthage, which was held
in 397 A.D., mainly through the influence of St Augustine, settled the
Canon or Collection of New Testament Scriptures as we Catholics have
them now, and decreed that its decision should be sent on to Rome for
confirmation. No Council (that is, no gathering of the Bishops of the
Catholic Church for the settlement of some point of doctrine) was ever
considered to be authoritative or binding unless it was approved and
confirmed by the Roman Pontiff The Council of Carthage, then, is the
first known to us in which we find a clear and undisputed catalogue of
all the New Testament books as we have them in Bibles now.

Before the collection of New Testament books was finally settled at
the Council of Carthage, 397, we find that there were three distinct
classes into which the Christian writings were divided. This we know
(and every scholar admits it) from the works of early Christian
writers like Eusebius, Jerome, Epiphanius, and a whole host of others
that we could name. These classes were (I) the books ‘acknowledged’ as
Canonical, (2) books ‘disputed’ or ‘controverted’, (3) books declared
‘spurious’ or false. Now in class (I) i.e., those acknowledged by
Christians everywhere to be genuine and authentic, and to have been
written by Apostolic men, we find such books as the Four Gospels, 13
Epistles of St Paul, Acts of the Apostles. These were recognised east
and west as ‘Canonical’, genuinely the works of the Apostles and
Evangelists whose names they bore, worthy of being in the ‘Canon’ or
sacred collection of inspired writings of the Church, and read aloud
at Holy Mass.

…This then being the state of matters, you can see at once what
perplexity arose for the poor Christians in days of persecution, when
they were required to surrender their sacred books. The Emperor
Diocletian, for example, who inaugurated a terrible war against the
Christians, issued an edict in 303 A.D. that all the churches should
be razed to the ground and the Sacred Scriptures should be delivered
up to the Pagan authorities to be burned. Well, the question was what
was Sacred Scripture? If a Christian gave up an inspired writing to
the Pagans to save his life, he thereby became an apostate: he denied
his faith, he betrayed his Lord and God; he saved his life, indeed,
but he lost his soul. Some did this and were called ‘traditores’,
traitors, betrayers, ‘deliverers up’ (of the Scriptures). Most,
however, preferred martyrdom, and refusing to surrender the inspired
writings, suffered the death. But it was a most perplexing and
harrowing question they had to decide?what really was Sacred
Scripture? I am not bound to go to the stake for refusing to give up
some ‘spurious’ Gospel or Epistle. Could I, then, safely give up some
of the ‘controverted’ or disputed books, like the Epistle of St James,
or the Hebrews, or the Shepherd of Hermas, or the Epistle of St
Barnabas, or of St Clement? There is no need to be a martyr by
mistake. And so the stress of persecution had the effect of making
still more urgent the necessity of deciding once and for all what was
to form the New Testament. What, definitely and precisely, were to be
the books for which a Christian would be bound to lay down his life on
pain of losing his soul? "
 
Jehovah’s Witnesses also make the claim that the early Church went apostate as do the Mormons.

When this gets brought up I ask them to give me the writings of any early Christians who were taught directly or one generation removed from the apostles that believed in the same doctrines as the LDS Church or the JWs. The problem for them is that the early Christians all believed in the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Jeff S.

www.catholicxjw.com
 
amills said:
Here’s a pretty good site that describes the process:
angelfire.com/ms/seanie/deuteros/graham4.html
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That was a great link, thanks. I’d like to find something that speaks of the process of discerning the books that weren’t accepted as canonical from the start, though.

Thinking about it, I find my friend’s original argument a bit specious. For one simple reason. No time in the past history of God’s Word, God’s interaction in both the old and new testaments, had He ever come and told someone to write something down, or translate something. The Jews passed on scriptures orally and through tradition to start with. Jesus told his apostles to spread His Word, not write anything down or print the bible. Man has created and written down the Word to pass along from person to person, the bible wasn’t a dictation from God to man. It was a collection of His interactions with men, His teachings, His work, the history of God and man. Yes, it is holy and sacred and true, because it came from God. But it was a concept of man to collect them in the bible to aid in passing along the Word to others. No where had God or Jesus ever came down and ordered it to be done. But when man did decide to do so, thankfully God gave us the Holy Spirit to guide man, specifically the catholic church, to what was true and holy.

Along comes Joseph Smith and suddenly God’s dictating scriptures to him, something that He had never been done before. And it is something that frankly adds to the spuriousness of the ‘religion’. It’s convenient to say that they’ve got the word of God from God himself, when there is no proof of that whatsoever. All we have is Joe Smith peeking in a hat and telling a story. Whereas the bible is a collection of writings that was widely known throughout the christian world. It can be found seperately before the canonization, and the sources are confirmable and credible. To compare the two is somewhat laughable, imo. And to say that the bom came from God himself, when there is no history or proof to it is funny. The bible is historical and provable. To say that the bible, with all it’s history and provenence is proof of the so-called ‘apostacy’ is a pretty big stretch.
 
jschwehm said:
Jehovah’s Witnesses also make the claim that the early Church went apostate as do the Mormons.

When this gets brought up I ask them to give me the writings of any early Christians who were taught directly or one generation removed from the apostles that believed in the same doctrines as the LDS Church or the JWs. The problem for them is that the early Christians all believed in the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Jeff S.

www.catholicxjw.com
Click to expand...
As always, Jeff, a voice of sanity, sobriety, and reason. You are my “go-to” guy for everything having to do with JWs!
 
THIRD NEPHI
THE BOOK OF NEPHI
THE SON OF NEPHI, WHO WAS THE SON OF HELAMAN
CHAPTER 28

Nine of the Twelve desire and are promised an inheritance in Christ’s kingdom when they die—The Three Nephites desire and are given power over death so as to remain on the earth until Jesus comes again—They are translated and see things not lawful to utter, and they are now ministering among men. Between A.D. 34 and 35

1 And it came to pass when Jesus had said these words, he spake unto his disciples, one by one, saying unto them: What is it that ye adesire of me, after that I am gone to the Father?
2 And they all spake, save it were three, saying: We desire that after we have lived unto the age of man, that our ministry, wherein thou hast called us, may have an end, that we may speedily come unto thee in thy kingdom.
3 And he said unto them: Blessed are ye because ye desired this thing of me; therefore, after that ye are aseventy and two years old ye shall come unto me in my bkingdom; and with me ye shall find crest.
4 And when he had spoken unto them, he turned himself unto the three, and said unto them: What will ye that I should do unto you, when I am gone unto the Father?
5 And they sorrowed in their hearts, for they durst not speak unto him the thing which they desired.
** 6 And he said unto them: Behold, I aknow your thoughts, and ye have desired the thing which John, my beloved, who was with me in my ministry, before that I was lifted up by the Jews, desired of me.
7 Therefore, more blessed are ye, for ye shall anever taste of death; but ye shall live to behold all the doings of the Father unto the children of men, even until all things shall be fulfilled according to the will of the Father, when I shall come in my glory with the powers of heaven.
8 And ye shall never endure the pains of death; but when I shall come in my glory ye shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye from mortality to immortality; and then shall ye be blessed in the kingdom of my Father.**
9 And again, ye shall not have pain while ye shall dwell in the flesh, neither sorrow save it be for the asins of the world; and all this will I do because of the thing which ye have desired of me, for ye have desired that ye might bring the souls of men unto me, while the world shall stand.
10 And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are bone;
11 And the aHoly Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and the Father giveth the Holy Ghost unto the children of men, because of me.
12 And it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he touched every one of them with his finger save it were the three who were to tarry, and then he departed.
13 And behold, the heavens were opened, and they were caught up into heaven, and saw and heard unspeakable things.
14 And it was forbidden them that they should utter; neither was it given unto them power that they could utter the things which they saw and heard;
** 15 And whether they were in the body or out of the body, they could not tell; for it did seem unto them like a transfiguration of them, that they were changed from this body of flesh into an immortal state, that they could behold the things of God.
16 But it came to pass that they did again minister upon the face of the earth; nevertheless they did not minister of the things which they had heard and seen, because of the commandment which was given them in heaven. **
17 And now, whether they were mortal or immortal, from the day of their transfiguration, I know not;
18 But this much I know, according to the record which hath been given—they did go forth upon the face of the land, and did minister unto all the people, uniting as many to the church as would believe in their preaching; baptizing them, and as many as were baptized did receive the Holy Ghost.
19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.
 
19 And they were cast into prison by them who did not belong to the church. And the prisons could not hold them, for they were rent in twain.
20 And they were cast down into the earth; but they did smite the earth with the word of God, insomuch that by his power they were delivered out of the depths of the earth; and therefore they could not dig pits sufficient to hold them.
** 21 And thrice they were cast into a afurnace and received no harm.
22 And twice were they cast into a aden of wild beasts; and behold they did play with the beasts as a child with a suckling lamb, and received no harm.
23 And it came to pass that thus they did go forth among all the people of Nephi, and did preach the gospel of Christ unto all people upon the face of the land; and they were converted unto the Lord, and were united unto the church of Christ, and thus the people of bthat generation were blessed, according to the word of Jesus. **
24 And now I, Mormon, make an end of speaking concerning these things for a time. **
25 Behold, I was about to write the names of those who were never to taste of death, but the Lord forbade; therefore I write them not, for they are hid from the world.
26 But behold, I have seen them, and they have ministered unto me.
27 And behold they will be among the Gentiles, and the Gentiles shall know them not.
28 They will also be among the Jews, and the Jews shall know them not.
29 And it shall come to pass, when the Lord seeth fit in his wisdom that they shall minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them. **
30 And they are as the angels of God, and if they shall pray unto the Father in the name of Jesus **they can show themselves unto whatsoever man it seemeth them good. **
31 Therefore, great and marvelous works shall be wrought by them, before the agreat and coming day when all people must surely stand before the judgment-seat of Christ;
32 Yea even among the Gentiles shall there be a great and marvelous work wrought by them, before that judgment day.
33 And if ye had all the scriptures which give an account of all the marvelous works of Christ, ye would, according to the words of Christ, know that these things must surely come.
34 And wo be unto him that will anot hearken unto the words of Jesus, and also to them whom he hath chosen and bsent among them; for whoso creceiveth not the words of Jesus and the words of those whom he hath sent receiveth not him; and therefore he will not receive them at the last day;
35 And it would be better for them if they had not been born. For do ye suppose that ye can get rid of the justice of an aoffended God, who hath been btrampled under feet of men, that thereby salvation might come?
36 And now behold, as I spake concerning those whom the Lord hath chosen, yea, even three who were caught up into the heavens, that I knew not whether they were cleansed from mortality to immortality—
** 37 But behold, since I wrote, I have inquired of the Lord, and he hath made it manifest unto me that there must needs be a change wrought upon their bodies, or else it needs be that they must taste of death;
38 Therefore, that they might not taste of death there was a change wrought upon their bodies, that they might not suffer pain nor sorrow save it were for the sins of the world. **
39 Now this change was not equal to that which shall take place at the last day; but there was a change wrought upon them, insomuch that Satan could have no power over them, that he could not tempt them; and they were sanctified in the flesh, that they were holy, and that the powers of the earth could not hold them.
40 And in this state they were to remain until the judgment day of Christ; and at that day they were to receive a greater change, and to be received into the kingdom of the Father to go no more out, but to dwell with God eternally in the heavens.

scriptures.lds.org/3_ne/28

Where are these translated Nephites today?
Where is the Apostle John today?

Some mormon missionaries will say that they personally have seen them, other missionaries will simply say that they do not know.

If the Apostle John is alive until the Second Coming, note the final judgement is after the second coming, then it is impossible for the church to go into apostasy because there is a living apostle.

If the Apostle John is no longer on earth then the book of mormon is lying in this text of 3 Nephi 28, and thus the book of mormon is proven to be false.

🤷
 
Lehl said:
Next time, ask him how Joseph Smith passed on the priesthood.😛
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I’m serious about this one. The Mormons literally had a crisis that resulted in permanent schisms when Joseph Smith was killed and there was no clear successor.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_Crisis_%28Mormon%29

Obviously we know that Brigham Young succeeded him ultimately as a result of a campaign, but he was off on a mission in Boston when Smith was killed in Ilinois.

So there was no “laying on of hands” or anything of the sort to show that Joseph Smith even chose Brigham Young. You could easily argue that Joseph didn’t “pass on the priesthood” to anyone.

Even Brigham Young himself first questioned "“whether Joseph had taken the keys of the kingdom with him from the earth,” Then it is reported that he “immediately felt assured that the “keys of the kingdom” rested with the church.”

Isn’t it totally ironic the absolute hypocrisy in that statement? They have the nerve to try to denounce Peter’s successor because they feel “he didn’t really pass on the keys or authority”, to Linus or Cletus, and Clement, etc?

What about “the keys of the kingdom RESTED WITH THE CHURCH”?:rolleyes:

It is the pot calling the kettle black and is easily dismantled if you bring up their situation for comparison. So you can ask your LDS friend why he even worried about the alleged splinter in the eye of the Catholic Church when LDS church sports a big huge beam?

I’ll suspect he didn’t know about the succession crisis.
 
Second, it occurred to me that he did not regard the bible with the same respect and reverence that he did the book of mormon. He obviously thought it was a better set of “scriptures” since it came directly from God, supposedly. And that he sorta gave a feeling of doubting some of the bible because it was “put together by apostasized christians that voted on it” instead of being written directly by God.
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That is the same as I have noted in the Mormons I have met. They say that the Bible is inspired, but then they add on the bit about “as far as it is correctly translated”, & how great the BoM is, by comparison.
Seems to be the standard “party line”…
 
And, yet those who claim it is mistranslated can not even translate Deut 6:4.
 
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