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IWantGod
Guest
Two catholic Popes said it was fake.
Are you sure about that?
I guess that’s why he was canonized in the end
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Are you sure about that?
I guess that’s why he was canonized in the end
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Freddy
Guest
They rejected it as being a miracle. What else could it have been as far as they were concerned?Freddy:
Two catholic Popes said it was fake.
Are you sure about that?
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IWantGod
Guest
That is not the same thing as expressing the opinion that it was faked.
If it was known to be a fake he would not have been canonized by Pope John Paul II. The fact that somebody doubted it, be it a pope or a nobody, is neither here or there.
The bottom line is that it couldn’t be explained naturally, and the context in which it occurred strongly suggests a miracle.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
Nothing’s wrong with it, at least to me, it just dominated the discussion for a while when I don’t think it was specifically what Gorgias was looking for.
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whatistrue
Guest
I am not an expert in that field, but I am sure there are experts who can determine the cause to a reasonable certainty, or at least well enough to be used as evidence in a criminal trial, in many if not most cases. The issue is whether someone is willing to spend the time finding and the money hiring such an expert.
How much training have you had in medicine, specifically trauma? Things can look alike to a layman, even an educated and highly intelligent layman, that look very different to a professional with the requisite special training and experience. Not to mention what they know how to discover by means other than visual examination.
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Freddy
Guest
I show you pictures that I say are of an alien spacecraft. You investigate and reject the claim. I think you’re saying that the pictures are fake. But I guess you can always say it was a mistake to think they were real.Freddy:
That is not the same thing as expressing the opinion that it was faked.
Is that an option for stigmata?
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IWantGod
Guest
Somebody doubted that the cause was God. That is not the same thing as affirming that the stigmata was fake or even that they had a good reason to doubt.
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Freddy
Guest
Well I stabbed myself in the palm of my hand with a penknife when I was about 12. Now that was a puncture wound. And the palm has a very good blood supply and I had a tendency to pick at the wound. It literally took weeks to heal and would bleed constantly. Drove my mother nuts.
I mean, this isn’t hard to do…
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Freddy
Guest
That’s right. It was claimed to be stigmata and the decision was that it wasn’t. The vatican sent a doctor and he concluded that they were caused artificially. How difficult is it to make your hands bleed for heaven’s sake…Freddy:
Somebody doubted that the cause was God. That is not the same thing as affirming that the stigmata was fake or even that they had a good reason to doubt.
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whatistrue
Guest
Watching wounds on your own body (that you caused) heal is nowhere near the same thing as being able to examine a wound on someone else’s body and determine the type and cause. And in many cases it really is “hard to do”.
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IWantGod
Guest
Okay fair enough, then give me a source, because there were plenty of other examinations from doctors and not one could find a natural explanation.
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Freddy
Guest
You’re kidding, right? Jesus’s wounds were caused by nails. Jam a nail into your hand and what will the wound look like? And as I said, a wound in the palm takes a long time to heal if you treat it carefully. If you purposely stop it healing it will be there as long as you want it to be.
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Freddy
Guest
“A doctor sent by the Vatican to examine them concluded that the wounds were probably caused and maintained artificially.” Padre Pio 'faked his stigmata with acid'Freddy:
Okay fair enough, then give me a source, because there were plenty of other examinations from doctors and not one could find a natural explanation.
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whatistrue
Guest
No, I am not kidding, and neither am I going to try to chase the goalposts down.
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Freddy
Guest
So you think it’s not possible to puncture your own hands with a nail. Fair enough.
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whatistrue
Guest
Not fair and nowhere near what I said.
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IWantGod
Guest
This is not evidence that it was faked, this is speculation and hearsay without a real valid source. Do you really think that the doctors that examined pio would not be able to tell that some phoney friar had put acid on his hands and feet?
Your the one that keeps telling us that it’s easy to spot a self inflicted wound!
http://www.sanpadrepio.com/StigmataTruth.htm
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Gravity isn’t “physical” either. But it’s effects on physical objects can be measured. Spirituality also has a cause and effect. It’s not predictable like the effects of gravity are, but there is no spiritual element to gravity.
Getting hard proof from a miracle really doesn’t seem practical, or even in keeping with the spirit of a miracle. So I don’t think studying miracles is useful in a discussion like this. I think it’s more useful to study the work of the holy Spirit, and it’s effects on people’s lives.
Anyway, the type of evidence that someone gatherers while they’re studying in the fields of anthropology, sociology, or psychology isn’t discarded because it’s not empirical enough. It’s not thrown out because it doesn’t involve numbers. Set whatever bar you like for evidence, or a consensus, and someone will disagree with it.
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Gorgias
Guest
To be fair, I think I’ve pointed out why it cannot be done in the way that some materialists demand it. Moreover, given that the “evidence” would be merely physical, I’ve pointed out why it is at risk of being pooh-poohed by materialists as ineffective for their needs. If physical evidence is to be rejected out of hand, then why collect it?
It’s a force in the physical universe. Therefore, it can be measured.
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1Lord1Faith
Guest
Right…”a force”. It’s something that may even be less understood than “spirituality”.
Isn’t spirituality something that can proceed from people? Isn’t that an accepted fact? If it’s not spirituality that moves people to do certain “spiritual” things then what is it? What physical, measurable, empirical thing is responsible for it? Can a materialist answer that question empirically?
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