The society after Martin Luther

[viktor_aleksndr]

Guys after the protests of Martin Luther to the Catholic church what do you think happened to our society?

Divorce
Death Penalty
Abortion
Sacrilege

 

[JoeyWarren]

And in the 1930 when Protestants issued Doctrine that birth control was no longer a sin, things got even worse!

 

[asquared]

viktor aleksndr:

Guys after the protests of Martin Luther to the Catholic church what do you think happened to our society?

Divorce
Death Penalty
Abortion
Sacrilege

several other things happened after Martin Luther left the Catholic Church:
American Revolution
Communist Revolution in China and Russia
Sputnik and the space race
sliced bread and canned beer

do you honestly think that just because a social or political or cultural event or change occurs it necessarily is caused by a certain event or person in previous history?

you certainly have a few holes in the logical progression of your argument. I am no fan of Luther but I am not aware of anywhere in his teaching where he is a proponent of divorce and abortion, although I think he advocated the death penalty for those responsible for the Peasant’s revolt (despite the portrayal in the recent movie about his life). Sacrilege is a pretty broad area, and has happened in all times and places, and Luther may have been responsible for his share, but surely not all of it.

 

[Della]

I know where you’re going with this, and I agree that questioning basic elements of Church authority and its teachings led to all sorts of societal problems. But, there was a lot of corruption in the Church at the time of the reformation that needed correction, too. I think it might be wiser to woo our separated brethren back into the fold with loving understanding than to begin composing “horror lists” against one another. Just my $.02.

 

[LatinCat]

Della:

I know where you’re going with this, and I agree that questioning basic elements of Church authority and its teachings led to all sorts of societal problems. But, there was a lot of corruption in the Church at the time of the reformation that needed correction, too. I think it might be wiser to woo our separated brethren back into the fold with loving understanding than to begin composing “horror lists” against one another. Just my $.02.

AMEN. The so called “Enlightenment” may be the product of the Protestant Deformation but stating that will not help bring Protestants back to Christ and his Church.

 

[IanS]

JoeyWarren:

And in the 1930 when Protestants issued Doctrine that birth control was no longer a sin, things got even worse!

Oh come now! I thought making birth control moral was supposed to make abortion a rare occurrence.

Yes, there was corruption in the Church and a lot of big egos on both sides. But there is a right way to make a difference and a wrong way. Compare St. Francis of Assisi (right way) to Martin Luther (wrong way).

The Church in Francis’ day was very much in need of reforming, but Francis did not set out to reform it. He simply set out to live a life of imitating Jesus, and that itself accomplished a lot of reforming in the Church.

The nail Martin Luther used to put his 95 Theses of Contention on the Wittenberg Church door put a crack in the dam of faith and morality that was put in place by the Bride of Christ, Holy Mother Church. Since that time the crack has only gotten bigger and bigger and the flood waters continues to rise. Man continues to open the flood gates on faith and morals, but the crack just seems to be getting bigger, and the waters won’t stop rising. I’d take some swimming lessons, if I were you.

 

[Contarini]

viktor aleksndr:

Guys after the protests of Martin Luther to the Catholic church what do you think happened to our society?

Divorce

Divorce became available under rare circumstances, though it wasn’t easy to obtain and Luther opposed it–he thought bigamy was morally preferable. (Please don’t bring up Henry VIII–that was an exceptional case and was an annulment anyway. Besides, Luther didn’t support Henry’s “divorce.”)

Death Penalty

I can’t see that there was much difference. Eventually the death penalty became less common and less brutal, but that wasn’t till the 19th century. The Reformers probably can’t take credit for that–just as they can’t be blamed for bad things that happened centuries after the Reformation!

Abortion

I can’t see any connection there.

Sacrilege

I’ll give you that one. Obviously Protestants desecrated things Catholics thought were holy. Though to be fair, Catholics burned Protestant Bibles, which is sacrilege from a Protestant point of view (Catholics didn’t think Protestant Bibles were real Bibles–but Protestants didn’t think Catholic Hosts and other sacred objects were “real” either.)

Still, it’s my opinion that we Protestants ought to be making public processions of penitence all over Europe to atone for our desecrations of the Blessed Sacrament in the 16th century.

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Edwin,

“Please don’t bring up Henry VIII–that was an exceptional case and was an annulment anyway. Besides, Luther didn’t support Henry’s “divorce.”).”

Nope. Henry was playing by the commmon rules of impediments/dispensations/decrees of nullity. It was how things were done then, not an exceptional case at all. One of Hank’s sisters got 2 decrees of nullity about that time, for some knee-slapping reasons, for example. What was exceptional was factoring in the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor.

GKC

 

[cheddarsox]

Is the implication that those 4 things did not exist before Luther, and that society was Utopia?

Luther was not the first “heretic” to revolt and open the “dam”. Though it might be worth asking why his has lasted as long as it has. Maybe because burning heretics was out by that time…I’m not sure.

There is nothing new under the sun. Sin is as old as Adam. A heritage we all share, naming Luther the “new” Adam won’t make you free of it.

cheddar

 

[JoeyWarren]

Here is how I look at Luther:

“And Satan will be let loose for a time, and he worketh thru his prophet Martin Luther…”

I personally believe by reading all his works, he was under the influence of Satan, if not Satan’s unholy angels. Only Satan and his minions are so capable of distorting and twisting scripture to their own means.

Martin Luther set in motion the greateast ever-growing Schism the Christian nation has known.

28,000 distinct Protestant Denominations have existed since the Martin Luther and it is estimated that 5 new denominations start somewhere around the world each week. Schism upon Schism upon Schism upon Schism. It is out of control.

Not to be judgemental but Martin Luther was one of the false prophets mentioned by Jesus. Hazarding a guess, I would say he is in hell and if by chance he is in heaven, his mansion in heaven is about the size of an OutHouse…

 

[Huguenot]

Della:

I know where you’re going with this, and I agree that questioning basic elements of Church authority and its teachings led to all sorts of societal problems. But, there was a lot of corruption in the Church at the time of the reformation that needed correction, too. I think it might be wiser to woo our separated brethren back into the fold with loving understanding than to begin composing “horror lists” against one another. Just my $.02.

Waow !!! If you “woo” me, maybe I won’t resist …

 

[JoeyWarren]

Della:

I know where you’re going with this, and I agree that questioning basic elements of Church authority and its teachings led to all sorts of societal problems. But, there was a lot of corruption in the Church at the time of the reformation that needed correction, too. I think it might be wiser to woo our separated brethren back into the fold with loving understanding than to begin composing “horror lists” against one another. Just my $.02.

Point taken!

But I still marvel why Lutheran’s are still Lutheran, when you present them with statements and writings of his that show that he did not believe certain books of the bible were “Not Spiritually Inspired” or for that matter “Not God Breathed”. He flat out denied that the written “Word of God” was the “Word of God”.

I just don’t get it!

 

[Contarini]

GKC:

Edwin,

“Please don’t bring up Henry VIII–that was an exceptional case and was an annulment anyway. Besides, Luther didn’t support Henry’s “divorce.”).”

Nope. Henry was playing by the commmon rules of impediments/dispensations/decrees of nullity. It was how things were done then, not an exceptional case at all. One of Hank’s sisters got 2 decrees of nullity about that time, for some knee-slapping reasons, for example. What was exceptional was factoring in the aunt of the Holy Roman Emperor.

GKC

Thanks for the correction. I actually worded things the way I did because I thought you said something of the sort in a recent post. I didn’t mean that Henry’s original application for an annulment was exceptional, but that his several annulments/divorces were not the norm for members of the Church of England, and still are not in fact (even Charles and Camilla had to settle for something slightly less than a remarriage ceremony in church). I meant “exceptional in Protestant/Anglican practice.”

Can you tell me exactly how Henry’s “divorces” were seen in his own time (not just C of A but A of C as well). Divorces or annulments?

Edwin

 

[GKC]

Contarini:

Thanks for the correction. I actually worded things the way I did because I thought you said something of the sort in a recent post. I didn’t mean that Henry’s original application for an annulment was exceptional, but that his several annulments/divorces were not the norm for members of the Church of England, and still are not in fact (even Charles and Camilla had to settle for something slightly less than a remarriage ceremony in church). I meant “exceptional in Protestant/Anglican practice.”

Can you tell me exactly how Henry’s “divorces” were seen in his own time (not just C of A but A of C as well). Divorces or annulments?

Edwin

Always happy to jump in on this subject. But, oops. Sorry. Knee jerk reaction to the fact that what Henry was doing, re: Catherine, was a commonplace of the day.

Multiple annulments, in fact, were not all that rare, as witness Henry’s sister Margaret, though Hank was obviously the poster boy. And his sister Mary, who married twice, married hubbies who each required annulments to make things kosher.

Though the terminology, contemporary or current, is often sloppy, there was no such thing as a divorce from a sacramental marriage, either RCC or CoE, then. In both Catherine’s and Anne’s case, the request was for a decree of nullity due to undispensed impediments, according to existing canon law. Catherine’s case I have often rehearsed, though I’ll do it again if anyone wants it. Anne’s was similar, and the *causa * was two-fold: An unconsummated marriage (quite true; Hank never touched her) and Anne’s incompetence to contract marriage, due to a pre-existing contract to wed the son of the Duke of Lorraine (*verba futura *). Either was a sufficent impediment to a valid marriage between Hank and Anne, though the first was true and hard to prove, the second sufficent as an impediment but likely not true. IIRC, that latter would have been an impediment of the justice of public honesty, but I’m too tired to look it up, unless challenged. In any case it was the same as one of the two impediments alleged by Henry’s sister Margaret, seeking a decree of nullity from her marriage to the Duke of Angus. Margaret’s other claimed impediment was the funny one, but no one ever asks me about it.

Standing alone, none of Henry’s cases, were anything out of the ordinary. It was how things were done then, to permit both the idea of a sacramental marriage, under canonical law, and also to permit the ruling classes to make and break dynastic unions, as required by matters of state. It happened all the time. I can’t overemphasize the utility of Sacrisbrick’s HENRY VIII, which is not pro-Henry, but is pro-history, for an understanding of what was going on. And for mind-numbing detail, Kelly’s THE MATRIMONIAL TRIALS OF HENRY VIII.

Good to see you again.

GKC

 

[TertiumQuid]

Here is how I look at Luther:

“And Satan will be let loose for a time, and he worketh thru his prophet Martin Luther…”

I personally believe by reading all his works, he was under the influence of Satan, if not Satan’s unholy angels. Only Satan and his minions are so capable of distorting and twisting scripture to their own means. (

Hi Joey-

Have you really read all of Luther’s Works? Which “works” specifically led you to your conclusion?

This should be interesting.

James Swan
beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/

 

[JoeyWarren]

TertiumQuid:

Hi Joey-

Have you really read all of Luther’s Works? Which “works” specifically led you to your conclusion?

This should be interesting.

James Swan
beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/

Colloquia

Luther’s New Testament

Luther’s New Testaament (Edition of 1524).

Luther’s New Testaament (Edition of 1622).

Do you want me to quote his heretical statements?

We could just start with his “Sola Srcriptura”, “Sola Fide” and the other one. All three are unbiblical and heretical.

James Swan, why do you visit here at all?

 

[Huguenot]

Here is how I look at Luther:

“And Satan will be let loose for a time, and he worketh thru his prophet Martin Luther…”

I personally believe by reading all his works, he was under the influence of Satan, if not Satan’s unholy angels. Only Satan and his minions are so capable of distorting and twisting scripture to their own means.

Martin Luther set in motion the greateast ever-growing Schism the Christian nation has known.

28,000 distinct Protestant Denominations have existed since the Martin Luther and it is estimated that 5 new denominations start somewhere around the world each week. Schism upon Schism upon Schism upon Schism. It is out of control.

Not to be judgemental but Martin Luther was one of the false prophets mentioned by Jesus. Hazarding a guess, I would say he is in hell and if by chance he is in heaven, his mansion in heaven is about the size of an OutHouse…

In a message you told me that in the Deep South some Protestants think the Catholics are Satanic or something of that kind, and that I have to bear this in mind when reading your posts ; OK OK, but aren’t you doing the same here when you consider Luther as a prophet of Satan’s ???

In Europe Catholic theologians are re-evaluating Luther’s actions, and he is not seen as so negative a person as he was before ; and in1999 the Lutherans and the Catholics signed a lot of theological agreements ; does no one take them into account over there ? ( we do on THIS side of the Atlantic )…

I don’t agree with Luther on everything either : I think he didn’t go far enough in his reforms since he didn’t contest the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and infant baptism …( he even persecuted, not only Catholics, but also groups of reformers who started to practise believers’ baptism as we do in my church : I’m Evangelical ; so for you I assume that I am even more “heretical” than him )

 

[JoeyWarren]

Yes you are right Hugenot.

But i am on the other hand stating the reasons for Luther’s excommunication from the church.

From a catholic standpoint, I will use the analogy given by Patrick Madrid.

Equate Luther’s teaching to a batch of brownies given to you. The 10% of the brownies contain arsenic even though the other 90% is good, do you partake of the brownies?

 

[Huguenot]

JoeyWarren:

Yes you are right Hugenot.

But i am on the other hand stating the reasons for Luther’s excommunication from the church.

From a catholic standpoint, I will use the analogy given by Patrick Madrid.

Equate Luther’s teaching to a batch of brownies given to you. The 10% of the brownies contain arsenic even though the other 90% is good, do you partake of the brownies?

Since you are a Catholic, I understand you disagree with Luther, as I have told you I disagree with him too, for other reasons …
You may state why, according to you, his teachings are heretical, but calling him a prophet of Satan, or saying he’s probably in hell is quite exaggerated and if before even learning something about Catholicism on this site, or even before asking a question to understand you better, I’ve got to read that Luther is Satanic, that he is in Hell, that Protestantism is responsible for the Holocaust ( which I have read somewhere ) or read your posts about the “Deformation”, it is not easy !!! Try to understand us too !!!
If the aim of this site is to get us nearer to the Catholic Church, despising our faith ( because speaking about Deformation instead of Reformation is very derogatory … ) is not the best way …and after some say that we’ll throw the baby with the bathwater, of course, if we are “insulted” even before being able to ask something …

 

[Huguenot]

LatinCat:

AMEN. The so called “Enlightenment” may be the product of the Protestant Deformation but stating that will not help bring Protestants back to Christ and his Church.

But we don’t need to be brought back to Christ, we’re Christians !!!