The society after Martin Luther

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( for Joey Warren )

I don’t know what “fundamentalist” means in your country, in France it means Muslim integrist ( in some cases it even nearly means Muslim terrorist … ) , so in this acception of the word, the only one I know, I’m not, since I’m not Muslim at all …

If by rapture you mean that when Christ comes back, the Christians who are dead will rise from the dead and, together with those who will still be alive, they’ll be taken with Christ, yes, I believe in it , but I’ve read several different theories about how exactly it will happen, it’s too complicated for my little mind … ( you know, pre-millenarism or post- or a-- I don’t understand anything, it seems that in France it is not so big an issue as in your country … ) :whistle:
 
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JoeyWarren:
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

I think I understand the real problem now.

You went from one extreme(atheism) to another (fundamentalism)

Do you believe in the rapture as well?

To answer all the items you have a problem or disagree with would take a week a whole day to write.

other than that I would suggest, if you have a spare 20 dollars + shipping I suggest you go to Amazon.com and do a search on ‘Patrick Madrid’ or use this link:
amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/103-9823907-8119819?search-alias=aps&keywords=Patrick%20Madrid

and consider purchasing the first two books listed:
Answer me this $9.56
Where is that in the Bible $8.96

Patrick writes in a manner and has knowledge that is easier to understand and read.

I personally don’t recommend the catechism to a protestant for reading, since it is geared for those already catholic.

Protestants are the reason that I plan to take over the RCIA classes at my parish, because at any given class, we have 10% protestants sitting in, and I believe when you have any protestants sitting in, you need to cover RCIA from a biblical basis first than refer to the catechism. As the Bible will shed the Light of Jesus on the Catechism and then eventually the protestant normally will see that the Catechism sheds light on the Bible…
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I’ve forgotten to ask : would the book “Catholicism for dummies” be good for “us” ???
 
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Huguenot:
Your messages sound very harsh …by European standards anyway …we usually discuss more “calmly”…
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  • Oui*, I can sound harsh but not to be mean or anything. You guys discuss things more "calmly??? Really…:ehh: Hmmmmm…:hmmm:
I feel all right just as I am …
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Huh? Which part? Feeling all right as a Protestant?:confused:
It is difficult to compare different people’s situations since we’ve all been brought up in different ways, if I have understood you well you’ve been brought up in Protestantism, I’ve been brought up in atheism …
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Yes it is difficult. I was brought up knowing God but not in a certain denomination (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) but yes, Protestant.
 
Huguenot said:
( for Joey Warren )

I don’t know what “fundamentalist” means in your country:
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I only know what it means from a southern aspect. It means these things:

“IF IT AIN’T THE KING JAMES VERSION, IT AIN’T A BIBLE”

“THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SATAN’S IMITATION”

and bumper stickers that say:
“IN CASE OF THE RAPTURE, THIS CAR WILL BE DRIVERLESS!”

“NOT EVEN A NAKED CROSS CAN BE PUT IN A CHURCH”

“I KNOW YOU TO BE A SINNER BY YOUR FRUITS”

“CATHOLICS ARE GOING TO HELL BECAUSE THEY WORSHIP MARY”

“THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY WORD OF GOD”

“THE BIBLE FELL OUT OF THE SKY AS A COLLECTION OF WORKS INTO A PROTESTANT’S LAP”

“GOD GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE”

“ONLY JESUS CAN FORGIVE SINS”

just to mention a few.
 
Huguenot said:
( for Joey Warren )

If by rapture you mean that when Christ comes back, the Christians who are dead will rise from the dead and, together with those who will still be alive, they’ll be taken with Christ, yes, I believe in it , but I’ve read several different theories about how exactly it will happen, it’s too complicated for my little mind … ( you know, pre-millenarism or post- or a-- I don’t understand anything, it seems that in France it is not so big an issue as in your country … ) :whistle:
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Rapture Fundamentalists believe there are 2 second comings of christ. One is secret to collect his believers before the great tribulation. I too was a Rapture believer, even as a Catholic, but that evil got washed away when I listened to Patric Madrid’s CD set ‘Catholics and the Rapture’. I realized I was still ensnared in Satan’s trap…Patrick Madrid and Carl Olson released the jaws of letdown…Thank God!!!
 
The one thing Fundamentalists here in the south hate more than Catholics? Muslims! and if they are of the radical type, they will not last long in this neighborhood of America for sure… :eek:
 
viktor aleksndr:
Guys after the protests of Martin Luther to the Catholic church what do you think happened to our society?

Divorce
Death Penalty
Abortion
Sacrilege
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Whose ? Where ? When ?​

Are you blaming the existence of the USA on the Reformation ? 🙂

You may have a point there… 😃

There was no lack of penalties for abortion and sacrilege before 1500 - and the same goes for the death penalty: depending on crime, place, and social position, one could be put to death in all sorts of ways. The pre-Reformation era was many things - but it was not humane in its treatment of criminals - that, and the discontinuation of torture, came later, largely as a result of the Enlightenment.

Of course, maybe some people think that
  • burning or
  • boiling or
  • disembowelling or
  • racking or
  • breaking or
  • blinding or
  • ripping out the tongue
  • or branding with hot-irons
  • or emasculating
  • or cutting off hands, or lips, or ears
of people, is desirable or Christian behaviour. I disagree. As for electrocuting people - that’s obscene 😦 ##
 
JoeyWarren said:
😦 Here is how I look at Luther:

“And Satan will be let loose for a time, and he worketh thru his prophet Martin Luther…”

I personally believe by reading all his works, he was under the influence of Satan, if not Satan’s unholy angels. Only Satan and his minions are so capable of distorting and twisting scripture to their own means.

Martin Luther set in motion the greateast ever-growing Schism the Christian nation has known.

28,000 distinct Protestant Denominations have existed since the Martin Luther and it is estimated that 5 new denominations start somewhere around the world each week. Schism upon Schism upon Schism upon Schism. It is out of control.

Not to be judgemental but Martin Luther was one of the false prophets mentioned by Jesus. Hazarding a guess, I would say he is in hell and if by chance he is in heaven, his mansion in heaven is about the size of an OutHouse… 😦
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“Judgemental” ? How is calling someone a “false prophet” “judgemental” ? Now, if Protestants do it… :rolleyes:​

Is the number of denominations:
  • 28,800
  • 30,000
  • 35,000
  • 40,000
  • 60,000
  • or some other number ? It can hardly be all of them. ##
 
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JoeyWarren:
Yes you are right Hugenot.

But i am on the other hand stating the reasons for Luther’s excommunication from the church.

From a catholic standpoint, I will use the analogy given by Patrick Madrid.

Equate Luther’s teaching to a batch of brownies given to you. The 10% of the brownies contain arsenic even though the other 90% is good, do you partake of the brownies?
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It’s a poor analogy, because teachings and biscuits differ in some crucial respects which are not provided for by the analogy.​

And in any case, the same could be said, with perfect fairness, of Catholic teaching at the time - for instance:
the CC of Luther’s day had ideas about the disposal of religious dissenters which are rather hard to square with the CCC - the CCC calls torture (which was part of the procedure of justice in the CC as well as in secular practice) “obscene”. Apparently, it was not regarded in this light in 1500.

Leo X condemned Luther’s rejection of the burning of heretics - this is a matter of Catholic doctrine, not of mere law: the Pope’s condemnation of Luther’s proposition on the matter is in Denzinger’s “Handbook” of doctrinal texts. IOW, it is still, in theory, a condemned proposition that “To burn heretics is against the Will of the Holy Spirit”. IOW, to affirm that proposition of Luther’s, is an error condemned by the Pope (in 1520 IIRC).

Whether this is condemnation is an exercise of the charism of infallibility, I’m not sure - I think it may well be, given the seriousness of the Pope’s duty to condemn error; and the SCDF “Note” to “Ad Tuendam Fidem”. ##
 
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Contarini:
OK, what are these books. All the books Luther questioned, as far as I know, had often been questioned before. None of his questions were new.

And what was this hidden, hard-to-find information you traced on the subject? Everyone knows that Luther questioned both the OT deuterocanonicals and certain NT books which had been questioned in the early Church (and which had come under increasing question once again with the rise of Renaissance historical and textual scholarship). Just what was your devastating discovery?

Athanasius, in his 39th festal letter, lists Sirach, Wisdom of Solomon, Judith, and Tobit (along with the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas) as non-canonical but church-approved catechetical litterature. He doesn’t seem to have any place for Maccabees at all. Does that discredit Athanasius in your eyes? (Art Sippo claims that the Fathers regarded some “non-canonical” books as inspired, but I’m dubious about this claim. It all depends on what you mean by “inspired.” I think “canonical” is a much more solid category than “inspired.”)

Edwin
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About the Fathers and Art Sippo - he may have had the Book of Jubilees in mind - the (old but still useful) two-volume edition of the Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament edited by R.H. Charles, & published by the OUP in 1913, includes discussion of Biblical and Patristic references to the texts.​

Jude, famously, appears to have thought 1 Enoch was Scripture.

Need “canonical” and “inspired” books be the same ? It’s not obviously so. Dante refers to some passages in “pagan” poets as “Scrittura” - though that is rather later on 🙂 Surely, the decisive thing about “canonical” books is that they are a kanωn, a “measuring-rod” for the community which uses them as canonical - whatever that use as canonical may involve. “Inspired” books might, conceivably, be inspired, without being useful in that way. (The “canonical” usefulness of the censuses in Numbers or the genealogies in 1 Chronicles, is hardly self-evident.) ##
 
“IF IT AIN’T THE KING JAMES VERSION, IT AIN’T A BIBLE”
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Where did they get the bible of king james version?
“THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SATAN’S IMITATION”
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So it means that we believe in Jesus which is Satan’s imitation?
“CATHOLICS ARE GOING TO HELL BECAUSE THEY WORSHIP MARY”
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Duh! who told them that we worship Mary?
“THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY WORD OF GOD”
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So God was very silent when Jesus was still young? So whatever your ministers speak which is not in the Bible is from Satan?
“GOD GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE”
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Is it in the Bible? I thought God’s word is only the Bible.
 
Paris Blues said:
* Oui*, I can sound harsh but not to be mean or anything. You guys discuss things more "calmly??? Really…:ehh: Hmmmmm…:hmmm:
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Huh? Which part? Feeling all right as a Protestant?:confused:

Yes it is difficult. I was brought up knowing God but not in a certain denomination (Baptist, Methodist, etc.) but yes, Protestant.

Yes, religious discussions are calmer here …and yes, I feel all right as a Protestant CHRISTIAN …
 
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JoeyWarren:
Rapture Fundamentalists believe there are 2 second comings of christ. One is secret to collect his believers before the great tribulation. I too was a Rapture believer, even as a Catholic, but that evil got washed away when I listened to Patric Madrid’s CD set ‘Catholics and the Rapture’. I realized I was still ensnared in Satan’s trap…Patrick Madrid and Carl Olson released the jaws of letdown…Thank God!!!
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No, I don’t believe there will be two raptures !
 
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JoeyWarren:
I only know what it means from a southern aspect. It means these things:

I agree with some parts, not with others l

“IF IT AIN’T THE KING JAMES VERSION, IT AIN’T A BIBLE”
°°°In France, anyhow, we don’t use the King James Version !

“THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SATAN’S IMITATION”
°°°I don’t agree with this either !

and bumper stickers that say:
“IN CASE OF THE RAPTURE, THIS CAR WILL BE DRIVERLESS!”
°°°well in fact I don’t know …

“NOT EVEN A NAKED CROSS CAN BE PUT IN A CHURCH”

I wouldn’t mind if it is a reminder of what Jesus has done for us … ( we have one outside, inside we have a Bible verse … )

“I KNOW YOU TO BE A SINNER BY YOUR FRUITS”

Well that’s how I knew I am a sinner

“CATHOLICS ARE GOING TO HELL BECAUSE THEY WORSHIP MARY”

I don’t agree with this either

“THE BIBLE IS THE ONLY WORD OF GOD”

Yes, it is the only word of God !!! ( I don’t accept the Q’uran as the word of God ! )

“THE BIBLE FELL OUT OF THE SKY AS A COLLECTION OF WORKS INTO A PROTESTANT’S LAP”

I don’t believe this either !

“GOD GAVE ME THE RIGHT TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE”

Yes, I believe this …

“ONLY JESUS CAN FORGIVE SINS”

I believe this too : who else could ???

Would Southern Fundamentalists consider I have passed my exam ???
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JoeyWarren:
The one thing Fundamentalists here in the south hate more than Catholics? Muslims! and if they are of the radical type, they will not last long in this neighborhood of America for sure… :eek:
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We don’t hate Muslims ; they need the Gospel too, and we have converts of Arab origin ( some convert to Catholicism too ) ; in France the Muslims represent about 10% of the population, most of them are not radicals …they just want to leave peacefully like everybody else …
 
I’ve forgotten to write something :

“THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SATAN’S IMITATION”

The President of the French Protestant Federation will soon meet the Pope, if French Protestants believed that he wouldn’t do so !!
 
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Huguenot:
I’ve forgotten to write something :

“THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS SATAN’S IMITATION”

The President of the French Protestant Federation will soon meet the Pope, if French Protestants believed that he wouldn’t do so !!
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See Hugenot, the Southern United States fundalmentalist is completely different from any European fundalmentalist.
 
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Huguenot:
“I KNOW YOU TO BE A SINNER BY YOUR FRUITS”

Well that’s how I knew I am a sinner
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Well the Fundalmentalists here believe once you are saved, you are no longer a sinner, they believe you are as pure and clean as Christ.
 
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