D
Darryl_B
Guest
Seriously, how can you say this.
- Status
T
TULIPed
Guest
Which part?
C
catholicray
Guest
@thomat65 Are you still with us?
H
HollowMan
Guest
That’s weird, because I’ve been a Christian for thirty years, in ministry for twenty-five, and a believer in the Biblical praxis of sola scriptura all that time, and yet, I’ve never heard anyone say the Holy Spirit is the only authority one needs.
If one were to receive a message from the Holy Spirit, even that would have to be judged in light of scripture.
If one were to receive a message from the Holy Spirit, even that would have to be judged in light of scripture.
J
joemccarron
Guest
The problem with this is that it proves too much. The author of Timothy was likely not referring to itself as “what was written” or any new testament writings - he was almost certainly referring to only the old testament. Even if we unreasonably claim it would include itself in “what was written” at the time 1 then we would know we can’t include later books of the bible that are accepted by both Catholics and Protestants.
So if those are truly meant to be words of limitation of authority then we may not have any Gospels in our bibles.
Cardinal Newman offered this sort of argument.
I talk about some of the problems with Scripture Alone here:
Gates of Hell and Protestant Church History | True and Reasonable
D
De_Maria
Guest
I have. In fact, I’ve seen that on CARM, many times.
But that’s neither here nor there. Are you here to defend your definition of Sla Scriptura? If so, please provide the teaching from Scripture.
We agree. Although, we judge private revelations according to Sacred Tradition AND Scripture, as taught by the Catholic Church throughout the centuries.
C
catholicray
Guest
You seem to be presenting a straw man or you have never had a real discussion with your own as to how to defend Sola Scriptura.
To be clear technically, I stated that Protestants claim that the Holy Spirit is the only authority necessary to “interpret” Sacred Scripture.
Do you believe Scripture interprets itself?
Further my argument relies on a particular definition of Sola Scriptura (there are several) which states that Scripture alone is infallible. Thus I ask if the Holy Spirit dwelling in men is fallible since Scripture alone is infallible?
J
John_the_Blind
Guest
If RayBob randomly picks up a Bible and starts reading it for the first time, on his own with no one else to talk to about it, is he considered to be a qualified authority on Bible interpretation? After all, God is working through him, isn’t he?
If this is the case, there is no need for Biblical scholarship, no need for religious studies, no need for the Church- or ANY church, for that matter. And since RayBob is now the Grand Pooh-Bah of Bible Study, he doesn’t even need God any longer because, as far he’s concerned, he knows it ALL. You can’t tell him he’s wrong about anything because GOD TOLD ME.
There is merit in being able to interpret the Bible, granted, but that comes from an awful lot of study and prayer. That the greatest minds the world has ever known have debated its meaning for centuries- and continue to do so to this day- is testament to that. I would be hard-pressed to name anyone who just picked up a Bible- or religious text of any faith- and just GOT IT right away with no help.
If this is the case, there is no need for Biblical scholarship, no need for religious studies, no need for the Church- or ANY church, for that matter. And since RayBob is now the Grand Pooh-Bah of Bible Study, he doesn’t even need God any longer because, as far he’s concerned, he knows it ALL. You can’t tell him he’s wrong about anything because GOD TOLD ME.
There is merit in being able to interpret the Bible, granted, but that comes from an awful lot of study and prayer. That the greatest minds the world has ever known have debated its meaning for centuries- and continue to do so to this day- is testament to that. I would be hard-pressed to name anyone who just picked up a Bible- or religious text of any faith- and just GOT IT right away with no help.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Basically, an awful lot of hard work, which they don’t consider meritorious in God’s eyes. Even though God says:
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
J
John_the_Blind
Guest
I don’t think the NT is as cut-and-dried as, say, the Torah or the Qur’an when it comes to spelling out THE RULES and as such one needs more skill in interpreting the NT. With the Torah it’s a matter of (at least for the Jews) figuring out how to implement those 613 commandments, and for Muslims the Qur’an is all about deciphering the proper context in which a commandment is given (and sometimes the context isn’t even in the Qur’an at all and one has to look to actual history to put 2 and 2 together). With the NT, it’s much a matter of discerning literal from figurative speech, and how this or that translates to action. “Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth” is easy enough- be meek, be humble- but how to DO this is an entirely different story. What is the criteria for being ‘meek’ in today’s world? How exactly do they inherit the earth?
So how to cut through much of this? We rely on experts on the Bible to figure things out for us in ways we can understand. I don’t know how my CD player works; I trust that others have that figured out for me. When we run into issues that are difficult to understand, we try to work it our for ourselves but when it proves too much we turn to experts- Priests, theologians- to provide a path for us to follow.
So how to cut through much of this? We rely on experts on the Bible to figure things out for us in ways we can understand. I don’t know how my CD player works; I trust that others have that figured out for me. When we run into issues that are difficult to understand, we try to work it our for ourselves but when it proves too much we turn to experts- Priests, theologians- to provide a path for us to follow.
I
Inquisitor1
Guest
My view on this is the Bible is the God-breathed, inspired Word of God, which we all can agree it is. This text is given to us so we can understand it, believe it and imprint it on our hearts and minds such that everything we do is guided by it and it alone. While it mentions certain things that tie it to the time it was written, it’s fundamental, underlying truths span all time, from beginning to end. God’s Word cannot be detained to over 2000 years ago and found wanting now. It has everything we need to know so we may see (not decide) what is right, what is wrong, what is of God and what is of the children of Satan. Any other book, text or codification of ritual practices is secondary to it and fallible, because they are not God-breathed. Therefore, even if a certain one of these can be said to be as close to infallibility as possible (ie Catechism), it would be the responsibility of every Christ follower to know through faith whether it is right or not - to test everything and hang on to what is good. If one has read through the Catechism and yet not read through the Bible and wishes to instruct, prophesy, or debate others, I would doubt that man or woman because they have chosen something that may be accurate over something that is 100% God-breathed and accurate. Just my two cents. You all do as the Holy Spirit informs you to do - that I do not want to get in the way of. But I believe the Bible already laid down our doctrine well before anyone else purported to interpret it out of Scripture. The Bible does not contradict itself or render itself confusing at any time. If it is to any one, then I would doubt the Spirit is with them.
I
Inquisitor1
Guest
From a logistical purpose, I say having a code of conduct for different scenarios is a help. But the code of conduct is itself not infallible unless it 100% corresponds to the Scripture without added mental gymnastics. We live in confusing times where the good seed and the weeds grow together in the Church clergy and laity, and we continue to see some of the false teachers within the Church exposed for who they are. Yet this trend of the seed and weeds growing together continues, which has an impact on every council and decision that the Church makes. Therefore I believe the primacy of Scripture ought to be a rallying cry for Catholics to protect ourselves from what is to come in the future - what is already laid down for us thanks to the love of Christ in Revelation. He has not left us unprepared for the future, but given us everything we already needed to know.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Can we agree that God inspired men to write the New Testament? And can we also agree that all those men were Catholic?
That disagrees with Scripture. Scripture says we should be guided by men:
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Says who? Not Scripture. Scripture says that Holy men were inspired and that we should follow their instructions. It doesn’t say that their instructions can’t be written.
Your two cents contradict Scripture. Scripture says that the Church Teaches the Wisdom of God:
Ephesians 3:10 so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities[a] in the heavens.
Jesus Christ established a Church and commanded that Church to Teach His Doctrines, long before the New Testament was written. It is those Doctrines which are the Traditions of the Catholic Church and which are the foundation of the New Testament.
If you believe the Bible, you need to believe the Church because the Bible leads you to the Church:
1 Timothy 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
Jesus Christ did not write a word of Scripture. He established a Church and commanded that Church to Teach all that He commanded. Therefore, Jesus Christ intended for you to listen to His Church. If you reject the Church, you reject Jesus Christ.
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
No. Even though the thistle is growing along with the good seed, (even among Catholic clergy) that DOES NOT have an impact on ANY ECUMENICAL COUNCIL OR PAPAL DOCTRINE. That is because JESUS PROMISED the gift of the HOLY SPIRIT to guide His Church ALWAYS. Not some nebulous invisible Church, but the ACTUAL INSTITUTION visible, and infallible, over which He is King. Therefore the Primacy of Scripture is a FALSE doctrine. The Catholic Church has THREE pillars or supports: 1: Sacred Scripture, 2: Sacred Tradition, 3: The Magisterium. NONE of these are given PRIMACY over the others. They all must work in concert. They do, and have always done. That is our PROOF of the Holy Spirit guiding our Visible Church here on earth.
In 2000 years of Church history, the Popes and the Councils have NEVER taught contrary to Tradition or Scripture. Beside the guidance of the Holy Spirit, on a practical level, Sacred Scripture and Tradition GUIDE our Teachers (the Magisterium.) Sacred Scripture IS NOT the teacher in the Church. If that was so then why did St. Paul ordain priests and bishops in places where he would be leaving? The Catholic Church is the SAME Church you read about in the Acts of Apostles, and spoken of in the Gospels.
If you love the Bible, then you should love the Catholic Church, because then you are LIVING the Bible (not just reading it, and judging for yourself what it means.)
Last edited:
C
Crocus
Guest
Nice summary of why we can be so sure of what we are taught. I like to think of the Church as a large sea going ship, sailing on a turbulent sea. Saint Peter (and successors) as first mate at the helm. Christ the Captain is in charge, with the Holy Spirit as guide (pilot). We can breathe easily on our journey home to the Father, we’re safe.
Last edited:
A
AmbroseSJ
Guest
It’s an analogy I like to consider myself! Protestants OTOH, have no Faith in the Promise of Jesus to be with his VISIBLE EARTHLY CHURCH to the end of time. They figure he let HIS Church, which HE governs through the Holy Spirit to go off the rails, and sent an apostate, sinful, vow-breaking rebel to correct it.
Last edited:
C
Crocus
Guest
It’s all good though; there are plenty of life boats tied into the back, for those not ready to climb fully on board.
- Status