The song “Mary Did You Know” is heretical.

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Melissa said:
That’s getting a bit absurd. Can we at least agree that this song has no place whatsoever at Mass?
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I do not what you consider absurd. I personally think attacking a song one can simply turn off is a little unbalanced.

I do not think the song is suitable for Mass because it is not defined for congregational singing, but that is not the topic of this thread. However, that is just my opinion and I would never presume to speak on the behalf of the Catholic Church where she has not spoken.
 
Is the thread about a song or a hymn! Sing a song of sixpence,a pocket full of Rye -as the song goes ,a poetic type but certainly not suitable as a hymn.The conclusion about “Mary Did You Know” is that it is not a Catholic Hymn and certainly not appropriate for any Liturgical function.(maybe nice to sing on a bus trip somewhere-sacra song types.).It reminds me of the non catholic hymn Amazing Grace with the words "“that saved a wretch like me”–Catholics do not believe in the error of predestination-we work out our salvation in fear and trembling as St Paul wrote,we are not saved until our personal final judgement,though we can hope and trust that God will have mercy on our souls.So in this sense it too should be looked at,though it was written very sincerly in a wonderful christian conversion experience.Come as you are-a nice song-Hymn maybe not?Repent ,prepare ye the way of the Lord! So are we introducing songs with bad theology and making them quasy “catholic liturgical hymns” in ignorance or because we like the tune?
 
Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer promotes segregation and Santa Claus is Coming to Town shows Santa as a subversive and foreshadows the events in Iraq!

Yeesh, c’mon peeps, I think we are reading into this more than it has to. Can we not just enjoy things without over-analyzing.
 
tinalewis said:
Yes, and I’m sure you’ll waste no time in letting our consecrated religious sisters of the Daughters of St. Paul know that they’re singing a song that’s heretical. 😉
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My Dear Consecrated Sisters of St. Paul,

This song is heretical in content and message. You should not be singing it. If your spiritual director is telling you that its ok…he or she is wrong.

You should analyze the lyrics in light of sacred scripture, revealed truth and catholic tradition.

Should you continue to sing this heretical song - you do so conscientiously.

Yours truly,

Mangy dog.
 
mangy_dog said:
My Dear Consecrated Sisters of St. Paul,

This song is heretical in content and message. You should not be singing it. If your spiritual director is telling you that its ok…he or she is wrong.

You should analyze the lyrics in light of sacred scripture, revealed truth and catholic tradition.

Should you continue to sing this heretical song - you do so conscientiously.

Yours truly,

Mangy dog.
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Please also let Msgr. Charles Pope also know that he advocating heresy:

blog.adw.org/2009/04/mary-did-you-know/

You can respond to him directly on his blog.
 
mangy_dog said:
Agreed - it;s a heretical song. Anti-Marian and anti-catholic.
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That is the topic here. Is it or isn’t it. I think many have little idea what heresy even is. The nature of heresy is not such that the answer can be equivocal or it is not heresy.
mangy_dog said:
In my estimation? Yes.

But then again…I’m just a Mangy dog.
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mangy_dog said:
My Dear Consecrated Sisters of St. Paul,

This song is heretical in content and message. You should not be singing it. If your spiritual director is telling you that its ok…he or she is wrong.

You should analyze the lyrics in light of sacred scripture, revealed truth and catholic tradition.

Should you continue to sing this heretical song - you do so conscientiously.

Yours truly,

Mangy dog.
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I know priests, bishops, national councils, cardinals, the curia and of course, the Holy Father. What I do not know is where lay people fit in the Church’s hierarchy in giving instructions to the Faithful or Relious Orders. Your first post here reflects an expression of opinion. The second one seems to me to usurp the role of the Church as teacher.
 
mangy_dog said:
Ditto Monsignor.

Yours truly,

Mangy dog.
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I checked his blog page and didn’t see where you commented to him. If this so song is truly so heretical, the bane of all that is sacred, and such a thorn in your side, why not actually address the good Monsignor directly rather than posting something which he’ll likely never read here at CAF?

Telling us “Ditto Monsignor” is really rather arrogant and pointless because I, for one, am not the good Monsignor nor do I think anyone else reading this thread is.
 
pnewton said:
That is the topic here. Is it or isn’t it. I think many have little idea what heresy even is. The nature of heresy is not such that the answer can be equivocal or it is not heresy.

I know priests, bishops, national councils, cardinals, the curia and of course, the Holy Father. What I do not know is where lay people fit in the Church’s hierarchy in giving instructions to the Faithful or Relious Orders. Your first post here reflects an expression of opinion. The second one seems to me to usurp the role of the Church as teacher.
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I can’t help what is “seems” to you. I can only express in print.
 
I’m just not seeing anything heretical in these lyrics. If we assume Mary as being divine I would say yes, but scripture can not be interpreted as saying she was. Jesus is divine, grace is given and received only through him. He is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. A little bit of bible reading shows this to be true… and even Jesus while being in human form, and placing human limitations on himself acknowledged that only the father knows certain events: Mark 13:32. If the God Man… God incarnate had these limitations that he placed on himself through being human, how can we assume that his hand maiden, Mary… a complete human being would have foreknowledge. In fact in a deep reading of scripture, it would be heretical to say that she did. Mary was not supernatural, nor was the stable in which Jesus lay, or the cross on which he hung, or the earth on which he hung. To experience humanity fully, and in humility God chose simple things and a simple girl to bear his child. How quickly we deify the things of God in the place of God (the golden snake, moses staff, relics of the cross… human beings.)
This is not to say that we don’t appreciate Mary and her humble willingness… but I’m looking for some answers.
Where does scripture say we need to pray through Mary and approach God through a mediator?
Where does scripture say that Mary became sinless and full of grace?
If we are to truly prevent heresy we can not rely on anything but the word of God for our direction. So I don’t want to hear responses from popes and priests past and present. What does God say on this matter in His word?

As I read it:
The phrase “full of grace” in Greek is “plaras karitos” and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament; neither one is in reference to Mary.

“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth,” (John 1:14).
“And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people,” (Acts 6:8).
The first citation refers to Jesus who is obviously full of grace. Jesus is God in flesh, the crucified and risen Lord, who cleanses us from our sins. In the second citation it is Stephen who is full of grace. We can certainly affirm that Jesus was conceived without sin and remained sinless, but can we conclude this about Stephen as well? Certainly not. The phrase “full of grace” does not necessitate sinlessness by virtue of its use. In Stephen’s case it signifies that he was “full of the Spirit and of wisdom,” along with faith and the Holy Spirit (Acts 6:3, 5). But Stephen was a sinner. Nevertheless, where does the phrase “full of grace” come from regarding Mary?

Aside from the Lord Jesus, the Bible is quite clear that nobody else has ever been sinless:

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;” Romans 3:23
“As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:” Romans 3:10

“They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” Romans 3:12

Notice, none of these verses say “all have sinned, except Mary.”

“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin…” Galatians 3:22
Mary knew she needed a Savior

In Luke’s gospel, Mary herself admits that she was a sinner. Otherwise she would never have concluded that she needed a Saviour:

“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.” Luke 1:46-47

Did Jesus exalt Mary?

Here’s how Jesus referred to His mother when Mary asked to see Him one day:

“Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.” Matthew 12:48-50

Jesus did not say, "Usher in this blessed woman."Rather, He replied that anyone who obeys God’ s Word is equal with Mary. Jesus refused to exalt her.

When Others Exalted Mary

When a woman came to Jesus and attempted to exalt Mary, look how the Lord responded:

“… a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.” Luke 11:27-28
Jesus announces that those who hear and obey the Word of God are blessed above Mary. Perhaps the Lord inserted these verses for those today who choose to ignore the Word of God so they can follow church traditions.

I’m not wanting to start an argument. I really want to hear some honest heart felt responses. My problem is, if we place the word of God above human traditions, human writings and priestly opinions on the subject then it appears there is no room for extreme exultation of Mary. She was Blessed for sure. No argument their. I admire her for her role in birthing and carrying our Saviour and being obedient in that, no matter what ridicule it may bring her. But because of my points above I see no heresy in this song… human question to a willing human vessel… I believe mary didn’t know the answers to most of these questions… her obedience to God isn’t amazing because she had all the answers… it was amazing because she didn’t and trusted anyway… after all isn’t that the best kind of obedience that people can offer their God.
 
mangy_dog said:
I can’t help what is “seems” to you.
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I love when people use scare quotes in such a trite manner. It tells me volumes. Yes, my opinion is just mine and yours is just yours and neither of us have the authority to tell a religious order what they should or should not do.
 
Sonburn, we dont believe Mary is divine. But that by grace God raised her above any other creature. Because she is His Mother. We don’t see her as a mere vessel.

Mary had a part in Jesus’ first miracle, at the wedding at Cana. Notice how He initially wasn’t going to do it. But because she asked, He did.

Sometimes Protestants think that we dont believe that Mary needed a Savior. What we actually believe is that she was saved at her conception… still through His merits, but at a different time, in a different way. This was for His sake… so as not to dishonour Him. Jesus received His human nature from Mary… she needed to be purified. When we receive Communion, we first have to go to Confession to take away any mortal sin. Just think of how pure the Mother of God must have been. (we call her the Mother of God because Christ is God, and His two natures can’t be separated).
Jesus announces that those who hear and obey the Word of God are blessed above Mary.
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that’s not how we interpret these words. What we believe He’s saying here is that Mary is blessed not just because she gave birth to Him, but because she heard and obeyed His word. As she said, “let it be unto me according to Your word.”

Here’s Revelation 11-12. It describes Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant:

Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head. She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth. Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.

Also, read this part in the Old Testament that describes the Queen Mother. We believe Mary is the Queen of Heaven because her Son is the King. Just as it was in the OT. This passage prefigures her:

So he continued, “Please ask King Solomon—he will not refuse you—to give me Abishag the Shunammite as my wife.”

“Very well,” Bathsheba replied, “I will speak to the king for you.”

When Bathsheba went to King Solomon to speak to him for Adonijah, the king stood up to meet her, *bowed down to her *and sat down on his throne. **He had a throne brought for the king’s mother, and she sat down at his right hand. **

“I have one small request to make of you,” she said. “Do not refuse me.”
The king replied, **“Make it, my mother; I will not refuse you.” **

1 Kings 2
 
Sonburn,your reliance on the Word in Scripture is good and The Holy Spirit will guide you to see the fullness of the Truth,within The Catholic Church.A lot of Catholic theology and indeed marianolgy(the study of Mary) has been thought and written about , firstly by The Church Fathers and secondly by the developement of doctrine over 2000years,of understanding Mary’s role in salvation history(with questions and objections similar to your own).I suggest that you read the early church fathers-those who carried on the teaching of Jesus after the first apostles had died,well before the printing press of the 16th centuary.Catholic Answers have a lot of the material that you have brought up.In one sense you have identified what this thread is all about-wrong ideas expressed in the words of a song can cloud her role as The Mother of God.I mention this title because you would say “that term is not in the Bible”.But it is not in reading scripture that you cannot see this truth, but because of your poor logic. In normal life, we point out a child and say that the person next to her is his mother.But when you think about that statement,the truth is that she is the mother of the body!As the parents procreate, in union with God-they provide the body-God creates the soul!! But still knowing this,we say the she is the mother of a person.Now applying this to Mary-she provided Christs’body and The Second Person of The Holy Trinity dwelt in that body to become a person(human body,Divine Nature).Since we do not say the Mary is the mother of a body ,the conclusion being the mother of a person-Jesus Christ-the Word made flesh in Mary.(being made Incarnate).So since Jesus is True God and True Man,Mary is The Mother of God.This is just one example of the logic that is now regarded as The Deposite of Faith;the implications that you brought up with your other objections ,as regards The Bible are dealt in the same manner,scripture implies these teachings.Mary is important because ,Jesus is important.“The Lord has done great things for me,Holy is His Name”! I trust that God will open your eyes and remove the scales of confusion-a sort of a "light bolt"moment.
 
On re reading my post,I made one very common error-I hope you spotted it! here it is.
(human body,divine nature)quote—heresy! I explained the process correctly but as you well know it should read (human nature-divine person),oh course that is right you wouls say! I think that what the person who wrote this “song” could well have been advised to have submitted it to a Catholic Theological expert! ???Perhaps a good musical writer could re write this song and make it into a catholic hymn!! That is the principle that Bishop Saint Augustine used,his first converts destroyed many of their former temples-he put a stop to this pillaging and told them that they now can be used for a good purpose-how about it you music gurus!
 
Monica4316
Thank you for your response. Although we may not agree, it is good to have such honest and open discussion about this subject. Like I said before, I’m not looking for an argument, if anything I’d like to merely be better informed and even if I’m unable to agree to at least understand where you’re coming from.

If you don’t mind I do have some further questions, observations and statements. Again I’m going to refer to a lot of scripture as I believe scripture to be our central source of truth. I believe it to also be the responsibility of every Jesus follower as part of the priesthood of all believers to dive into scripture to discover that truth for themselves
(“You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ … But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light” 1 Peter 2:5-9. The passage does not refer to a select few who are designated to tell us what truth is, but the responsibility is on all of us to be priests and discover the word of God… Sorry I’m a little passionate about this as theologian and a pastor this is what I encourage the members of my congregation to do themselves. To not merely just take what I say as law, but to dive into the word of God for themselves…Sorry for the segway.

Is Mary queen of heaven? 

The only occurrences of the phrase “Queen of Heaven” in the Bible are in reference to a false pagan goddess (see Jeremiah 7:18; 44:17-25). Jesus’ mother Mary is never described as having any kind of exalted position in Heaven. The Bible does not record Mary’s death. In fact, Mary is never even mentioned after Acts chapter 1, verse 14. Mary was a godly women through whom God chose to bring forth His beloved Son (Luke 1:26-38). The Bible gives us no reason to believe, though, that Mary was sinless or is now exalted as the “Queen of Heaven.”
If there are any verses I missed that use the term “Queen of Heaven” please tell me I’d love to discuss that with you.

Mary is to be respected as the earthly mother of Jesus, but she is not worthy of our worship and she cannot hear our prayers. The Bible nowhere indicates that anyone other than God is to be worshipped or revered. The Bible nowhere indicates that anyone other than God can hear or answer our prayers. Jesus is our only advocate in Heaven (1 Timothy 2:5). If Mary were to speak to us today from heaven, she would say the same as the angels do when people try to worship them – “Worship God!” (Revelation 19:10; 22:9). Jesus of course respected his mother as we should respect our earthly parents, This is why I believe Jesus turned the water into wine. This does not translate into Mary being elevated in anyway as it is still purely God who did the Miracle… as it was the many countless times that He was asked by human beings to do the miraculous… Mary was not the only one to ask Christ to perform a miracle.

Revelation 12? I’m not sure if I agree with your explanation of this scripture. There have been many interpretations of this verse most scholars lean toward it being a description of Israel or the true church of God. The problem with Revelation as a book is that it so filled with eschatological symbolism that it is often unclear what is being spoken often only being made clear… once an event has occurred. The book of revelation we must understand too was written firstly for Christians being persecuted, to help them understand that God is sovereign and that he would bring his bride, the church, through persecution. Because so much symbolism is used and because the woman in this description is never named it would be poor exegesis to label her as Mary. It would be like seeing a man at a bus stop with a beard and a red shirt and assuming he is Santa. Without facts and some sort of introduction that would merely be guessing on our part.

I won’t go too much into your verse in 1 Kings 2, other than to say I think that parallel is one created through perception and isn’t really “biblical proof” to say that Mary is “Queen of Heaven.” If we’re going to use this verse as proof realistically there should probably be a New Testament parallel we Jesus speaks of, or treats his mother in the same way. This is how biblical prophecy works for example. When we see a description about Christ in the old testament there are very clear lines we can draw to fulfillments in the new testament. I don’t see any such clear lines connecting this old testament reference to anything in the new testament that would identify Mary in a state where “God raised her above any other creature” to a queen status in heaven.
Continued in next post…
 
continuation:
I think doctrine needs to not be based merely on church tradition or what has been handed to us by our leaders, but it needs to come to us first hand from God… And God seems to be pretty clear on the things that are important to Him:

Jesus is the Son of God: 2 Peter 1:1

He Came to Earth born as a baby: Matthew 1-2, Luke 1-2

He died on a cross and rose on the third day: Matthew 27:52 to 28:20, Luke 23:44 to 24:12,
John 19:29 to 20:18

My point is scripture doesn’t beat about the bush on these issues. It’s important to God that we knows these things and make it a clear part of our doctrine and teaching. In fact we can see this right through the new testament. There are some gray area doctrine that isn’t spoken as clearly or as often… but the things that are really important to God for his followers to know He has repeated over and over again, from several perspectives from several authors. This is why I believe what I believe… Because God was so intent on making sure we believed and followed those things He made sure there was no missing it.

Where are the clear scriptures that leave no possible room for discourse or interpretation that teach the following:

God raised Mary above all other creation. God did not use mirky imagery to tell us the truths of us Son… what are the clear verses that teach this.
Using the same filter: Mary saved through conception?
Mary as s bearer of grace?
Mary as our means or mediator to the Father?

Forgive me if any of my passion comes across as disrespectful or mean spirited… it really isn’t meant to be, but as I said before I wish to understand you and Catholicism through these discussions. I’m human and I can easily trip over my own fervour offending in the process. My apologies if I have done that in anyway.
 
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