The Soul and the Brain

[dkdempsey]

Why would anybody want to do that? If there is no God and afterlife, then we are all going to cease to exist, in which case what does it matter what we do in this life? It all just becomes irrelevant an irrational. Morality is irrelevant if there is no such thing as moral truth.

Love is relevant. It has meaning.

 

[MindOverMatter]

Love is relevant. It has meaning.

Love is just a chemical reaction in your brain; it means nothing. Any meaning you tie to it is just a fantasy. Any value you tie to it, is subjective. In fact you are just a series of chemical reactions; of no more objective value then a frog. Nothing more.

 

[dkdempsey]

Love is just a chemical reaction in your brain; it means nothing. Any meaning you tie to it is just a fantasy. Any value you tie to it, is subjective. In fact you are just a series of chemical reactions. Nothing more.

Wow. Is that what you tell your girlfriend or wife? What are you getting her for Valentine’s Day, a matching set of microscopes along with some micro slides of fungi and amoebas for her to examine? I guess you’re pretty popular in love then, huh?

 

[MindOverMatter]

Wow. Is that what you tell your girlfriend or wife?

Human beings who have no God, have no choice but to resort to lies and fantasy in order to make life seem worth living and meaningful.

Like you say, you wouldn’t have a girl friend very long if you told her the truth. Thats if you value the truth.

 

[dkdempsey]

Sounds like you are talking from personal experience of yours there dude

 

[MindOverMatter]

Sounds like you are talking from personal experience of yours there dude

I have no choice if i have no free-will; its just the way I’m wired unfortunately. I Blame my genes.

 

[MegaTherion]

Why would anybody want to do that? If there is no God and afterlife, then we are all going to cease to exist, in which case what does it matter what we do in this life? It all just becomes irrelevant an irrational. Morality is irrelevant if there is no such thing as moral truth.

You are assuming that something has to be permanent in order for it to be meaningful.

Just because something will eventually have no value doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have value right now to you and people you care about.

My life will eventually end and will be of no value (at that time), but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t of great value to me (and those I love) right now.

I suppose “love” and “free will” and “happiness” are, in a sense, illusions – but only if you insist on defining them in child-like ways that are predicated on magic that will last forever.

 

[MindOverMatter]

You are assuming that something has to be permanent in order for it to be meaningful.

Just because something will eventually have no value doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have value right now to you and people you care about.

My life will eventually end and will be of no value (at that time), but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t of great value to me (and those I love) right now.

I suppose “love” and “free will” and “happiness” are, in a sense, illusions – but only if you insist on defining them in child-like ways that are predicated on magic that will last forever.

The kind of value you speak of is a subjective illusion; a fantasy that people share with each other. The game of life. But for those of us who are concerend with reality and truth, we cannot help but realise that we are nothing more then a series of chemical reactions with no more value the a slug or a lump of doo doo. In the social economy it serves our selfish agenda’s to form friendships so we can feel like somebody of great value. People value you for what you can give them, for what stimulates their senses, such as friendship; and your value is only as much as you can entertain or give comfort to their meaningless existence. Other people who do not master the social hierarchy, simply rot, commit suicide, or end up in mental homes. What about them? But so what, everything is going well for you right? But out side of pleasuring others, you, objectively, in reality, your life has no true personal value whatsoever. And your parents only love you because they are programed to do so by their genes.

But hey…perhaps you are happy and shallow enough to be content with that reality. If all things are going well with you in the social hierarchy of that fantasy we call humanity, and there are enough creatures around you who are willing to serve your senses and make you think that you are worth something, why would you need to believe in such a silly thing such as God!!! You all ready have your Gods.

Peace.

 

[MindOverMatter]

I need Objective, Meaning, Value, Purpose and Moral Truth. I don’t want my value dictated to me by some strange creature on the basis of how much pleasure i give them, or because they feel compelled by their genes to look for a social buzz. If thats life then i am not interested.
I especially haven’t got much patience for those who want to reduce my existence to such an irrational state of being, just so they can feel content with there own self serving existence. Disbelief might give you buzz, but that in no way means that you are more rational then me for resigning to such a reality.

 

[MegaTherion]

But hey…perhaps you are happy and shallow enough to be content with that reality.

To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, it’s only the superficial people who are truly deep.

Incidentally, I have no problem accepting that love is conditional – that I actually have to earn the love and respect of those around me (and whether that love is a “subjective illusion” or not, it’s still meaningful to me).

I also have no problem accepting that life is difficult, unfair, and wrought with hardships; I also accept that dwelling on those facts (or bemoaning them) will accomplish nothing.

The source of the quotation on my mind is escaping me: “Life is a beautiful game, except that it hurts.”

 

[wasmit]

Plus, I am curious if there is a Catholic understanding to how our souls look. I understand that they are invisible to the corpreal eye but what about how they look to those in the spirit? Will we look like ourselves.

The look like this:

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[MindOverMatter]

I also have no problem accepting that life is difficult, unfair, and wrought with hardships; I also accept that dwelling on those facts (or bemoaning them) will accomplish nothing.

Of coarse; by all means, take life for granted if you so wish. Truth is only as valuable as it serves your agenda. It obviously makes your life so much fuller to belittle the intellects of those who believe that life is so much more then the subjective fantasy adventure that you share with your circle of friends.

Thats obviously why you come to this forum. You can’t stand the idea that belief in God is rational and valuable to people.

In any case lets just leave it at that. I was not talking to you anyway. I was talking to somebody else who is in danger of falling into the same dream world that your in now. But hey…life’s ah dream. A nightmare for some.

I’m placing you on my ignore list.
Good luck and Godbless.

 

[MegaTherion]

But hey…life’s ah dream. A nightmare for some.

I’m placing you on my ignore list.

Seems I’ve struck a nerve.

I assume that a person comes to a discussion forum because he or she is interested in discussing ideas. That means listening to and responding to dissenting opinions, as that is the only way to learn and grow. Oh well.

To the intelligent people still reading, let me note that there is nothing “subjective” about my position – it’s based on cold, hard evidence in the world around me. It’s because I value truth (i.e. beliefs that are in accord with the objective world that we share with everyone) that I hold the position that I do.

There’s also nothing necessarily depressing about this position. It is what it is – it’s your outlook that makes it either a distressing situation or a golden opportunity.

The answer to life’s problems is not to immerse oneself in a fantasy realm of the “beyond.” The answer is not to reject life because it hurts or because it doesn’t promise you unconditional love that lasts forever and ever and ever.

Such dreams are for children.

We can only begin to make life better for ourselves and for others if we acknowledge reality as it is.

There’s no “soul” separate from the brain.

Be well, everyone.

 

[Benadam]

You are assuming that something has to be permanent in order for it to be meaningful.

 

[Benadam]

There’s no “soul” separate from the brain.

Do you imply here that there is no seperation but brain and soul are whole and are being one not two parts that form a division?

Or do you mean to imply that a state of seperation would implicate that soul exists?

 

[greylorn]

The experiment is not irrelevant, and I think is misunderstood by you. Libet showed that the conscious “decision” to perform a simple, not random, act like pressing a button was preceded by brain activity, suggesting that the brain had already decided to initiate the activity before the “decision” was consciously made. The same sort of phenomenon has since been replicated with functional neuroimaging techniques. These experiments are important because they suggest that free will is an illusion.

I think the whole topic of this thread - how the soul controls the brain - is a little too much like a “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” argument. Souls and spirits, if they exist, are immaterial, supernatural phenomena, whose existence we take on the basis of faith, alone. The workings of the brain are enormously complex, but are being understood increasing by cognitive neuroscientists. Nowhere on functional brain MRI scans, EEGs, etc, has the signature of the soul been found, and it never will be. We Catholics can believe in its existence, but thinking too much about the issue, mixing up the tenets of faith with the objective findings of experiment and science, is I think a misunderstanding of the issues at hand.

Libets’ experiment ignores the possibility of a “soul” or other outside entity controlling the brain. Your analysis of his experiment does likewise. You are tiptoeing along both sides of an ideological fence, determined to keep that fence intact. I cannot imagine why.

Experiments in science are never done at random. Each is designed to prove or disprove a particular point of view. If the focus on a particular point of view is askew of reality, the experiment might be impressive and might even shift the current scientific trend. Yet it remains meaningless.

For example, there is a famous physics experiment (Michelson-Morley) which attempted to measure the change in the speed of light as it passes through the aether. No change was measured. Shortly thereafter, Einstein, who had never heard of the the M-M experiment, devised a theory which rendered the experiment irrelevant. Physicists subsequently decided not to bother with the aether and declared it non-existent, nevermind that it shows up in all mathematical descriptions of electromagnetic phenomena, and that the M-M experiment has been proven unable to have detected the aether.

There are a number of neurological experiments indicative of the existence of something outside the brain, controlling the brain. There are experiments suggesting mechanisms by which this might take place. I’ve encountered these with a tiny bit of research and reading.

However, since, thanks to individuals who prefer fence-straddling above belief questioning, there is absolutely no support in the religious community for experiments which would scientifically demonstrate the existence of the soul, because its members have already declared that the soul, being spiritual and outside the physical universe, cannot be scientifically demonstrated.

Enjoy your kittens.

 

[greylorn]

You asked for a definition of spirit. My definition is that spirit is a real entity not composed of matter-energy. (I was going to say a real substance, simple in nature, and not composed of matter and energy, but the word “substance” might be misconstrued as referring to physicality.)

I don’t expect that definition to be satisfying to you from the point of view of physics. Yet in reviewing the thread, I find little in the way of definitions of terms, such as “soul” or “spirit” that would be satisfying from a physicists point of view. You and others have indicated that anything with a physical interface must be physical. If that’s the definition of physical, ok, but most theists would not accept the definition.

It would seem that several of the posters are not only theists, but believers. My response was to HelenaMT’s comment about the Holy Spirit operating in our dimension, so I thought that Helena believes in the Holy Spirit, presumably as one of the Persons of the Godhead. God is commonly taken to be spirit, not matter, and yet to interact with creation, which is material. Theologians would quibble about defining Him as physical simply because he is able to interact with the physical.

The soul has been variously described here as an “information network projected by the brain,” as a possible epiphenomenon of the brain, or as more likely the inverse of an epiphenomenon, operating on the brain as a controller rather than an emanation of it.

So if my definition of spirit is found lacking, it is no more so than other attempts at definitions found here.

If humans have a soul, and if it can be said to at some point be freed from the body, then there must be a non-bodily aspect to our natures.

The problem with conversations like this is that their perpetrators write in a logical manner and indicate a useful measure of intelligence and knowledge, but then use their intelligence to pretend that they do not understand the basic principles of logic.

Let me try this again.

The definition of “physical” includes as physical anything which interacts which anything which is physical.

So suppose that you accept that matter is physical. Most people do because they imagine that they can see and touch it, although this is not actually possible.

You imagine that you see matter because electromagnetic radiation (light) bounces off it and into your eyes, which through a process too complex to interest anyone on this site, translate photons of light into images presented to your brain.

Every element of this process is physical and involves physical processes. Most of these processes have been inaccessible to the human mind until the last century. The science of physics has disclosed some of them. Most of the interesting descriptions involve non-material processes, but all require physical processes.

If you are parked somewhere within your brain, or if you exist in some kind of juxtaposition with the energy fields generated in your brain and are capable of interpreting these as visual images, then you are, by definition, a physical entity.;

You do not have the option to argue with definitions, unless you opt out of the entire discussion. You don’t get to redefine what the science of physics is about, simply because it conflicts with your religion. Nor do I.

Your definition of spirit is inadequate, as you correctly predicted, but not for the reason you imagine. I shall define a “clumbuggle” as, “a real entity not composed of matter-energy.”

Given that non-functional definition, what do you know about clumbuggles?

 

[MindOverMatter]

Given that non-functional definition, what do you know about clumbuggles?

Something that is non-physical, has no dimension. Although the soul is united with the body, the soul is not, and cannot possibly be, located in the brain. The spiritual mind has no location or dimension.

 

[greylorn]

I pretty much agree with this, especially the bolded part. The soul will not be found through experimentation, only through extrapolation and self-reflection, which is how the self knows itself. The human animal is said to be a rational animal capable not only of consciousness but of being conscious of its own consciousness.

Agreement with the “bolded part” is why scientists have separated their work from any and all religious beliefs. Yep. Insist upon your dogmas.

Keep your mind tightly closed to the possibility that the soul can be discovered by intelligent and open minds.

Protect your beliefs at all costs. Teach your offspring to protect the same beliefs, and never to think outside a box defined centuries ago by men who thought that the earth was the center of the universe.

Defend beliefs invented by these ignorant men on the grounds that they were inspired by the Creator of the Universe. Don’t bother to explain why the Creator neglected to inform those good old boys that the earth is an outpost at best, and that 6-day creation was mythological

Hold your certainty with pride and righteousness. Since other human beings have given you your beliefs, they must be true.

 

[greylorn]

Something that is non-physical, has no dimension. Although the soul is united with the body, the soul is not, and cannot possibly be, located in the brain. The spiritual mind has no location or dimension.

And you know this… how?

If the soul is united with the body, but not located within the brain, where is it? Through what processes are the interactions between soul and brain manifested?