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StAnastasia
Guest
What is the status of spiritual minds (human) that have never known somatic consciousness, either because they were never born, or because they were born into unconsciousness or early death?
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
Guest
Is “burned” being used analogously in this context?But I guess I was wrong to think the spiritually dead soul is immortal,as a spiritually dead soul does not live on, but is burned in hell and destroyed with the body.
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Ready,But I guess I was wrong to think the spiritually dead soul is immortal,as a spiritually dead soul does not live on, but is burned in hell and destroyed with the body.
I’m not so sure you were wrong then.
But what do you mean now that a “spiritually dead soul does no live on, but is. . . destroyed”?
VC
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ready
Guest
Yes, burned by the flames of God’s love, an analogy.Is “burned” being used analogously in this context?
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StAnastasia
Guest
That’s an odd analogy – love burning something to destruction. I hope I never encounter God’s love if that’s the case!Yes, burned by the flames of God’s love, an analogy.
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Benadam
Guest
If you think of love, beauty, goodness, truth, all those concepts we grasp as perfections of God manifest in creation, in their absolute form as God, any increased unity would increasingly destroy what you were before the encounter. Amplifying either what is or isn’t like God about you. You know like they say. You can deny the truth or love, but you can’t know it and stay the same.That’s an odd analogy – love burning something to destruction. I hope I never encounter God’s love if that’s the case!
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Benadam
Guest
I’m not sure if I understand Kreeft’s view. Aquinas taught that all powers of the animal soul are manifested through corporeal organs. This is a proof that the animal soul is generated by the earth and dependent on the earth’s existence (matter) therefore are mortal. There are powers of the human soul that are not manifest through corporeal organs accordiong to Aquinas and this is a proof that the human soul is not generated by the earth but created directly from God and therefore immortal.Yes, that looks like an interesting article. I got to read some of it. Peter Kreeft said that the idea of an immortal soul is a misconception that comes from Platonism and says that the soul in its natural state (without infused grace) is not immortal, but dies and remains as refuse in hell. It caught me off guard because I always heard that the soul is immortal and always had applied it to all souls, even those without divine grace in them.
I don’t think Peter Kreeft is equating the death of the soul with a final moment of being consciously aware of one’s own existence. Is he?
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soma
Guest
I feel there is an ocean of pure consciousness or God the Father and everything goes into the ocean and comes out of it.What is the status of spiritual minds (human) that have never known somatic consciousness, either because they were never born, or because they were born into unconsciousness or early death?
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
Guest
Are you thinking pantheistically in this case?I feel there is an ocean of pure consciousness or God the Father and everything goes into the ocean and comes out of it.
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soma
Guest
I believe God omnipresentAre you thinking pantheistically in this case?
Psalms 139:7-8 “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.”
I believe there is one God and God is everywhere.
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ready
Guest
Read Peter Kreeft’s book on heaven. That is where I learned the analogy. It made sense enough to me.That’s an odd analogy – love burning something to destruction. I hope I never encounter God’s love if that’s the case!
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ready
Guest
In that debate I had with another post-er I agrued that the soul was immortal. After reading what Peter Kreeft said about only God being immortal I reasoned that I was wrong in making may agrument. The gentleman I was arguing with mentioned the passage where Jesus warns us not to fear him who can kill the body, but Him who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Without God and unrepentant at death, indeed, we are waste and destroyed for all eternity in hell where we do not enjoy living, but eternal death.Ready,
I’m not so sure you were wrong then.
But what do you mean now that a “spiritually dead soul does no live on, but is. . . destroyed”?
VC
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Daedelus76
Guest
In Hinduism/Buddhism, they have a belief in the “subtle body”. This is like the “outline” of the body, it is the vehicle for consciousness/personality, it exists below the “gross body”. It has energy centers or chakras, such as the intellect, the heart, etc. (the Greeks actually had this idea, too, the soul being made of three parts). I think this view of the “soul” is the most true. It’s not quite as “ethereal” as the descriptions I hear for the Christian idea of a soul, sort of a substantial thing that is amorphous and without shape and doesn’t change (in icons sometimes it looks like a jewel).
Another thing I’ve read, frequently in near-death experiences, people describe having a body. Some blind people have reported having vision for the first time, and people with missing limbs often describe having a limb in that place. Sometimes the body appears very physical, other times it is ethereal. Some people don’t even know initially they are dead, everything feels real.
Another thing I’ve read, frequently in near-death experiences, people describe having a body. Some blind people have reported having vision for the first time, and people with missing limbs often describe having a limb in that place. Sometimes the body appears very physical, other times it is ethereal. Some people don’t even know initially they are dead, everything feels real.
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Benadam
Guest
The christian concept of the soul isn’t insubstantial. The soul and body are so intimately united that the body shapes the soul and the soul preserves the form of the body. Souls are not considered as wispy mists of vapor but as a distinguishing part of a whole…In Hinduism/Buddhism, they have a belief in the “subtle body”. This is like the “outline” of the body, it is the vehicle for consciousness/personality, it exists below the “gross body”. It has energy centers or chakras, such as the intellect, the heart, etc. (the Greeks actually had this idea, too, the soul being made of three parts). I think this view of the “soul” is the most true. It’s not quite as “ethereal” as the descriptions I hear for the Christian idea of a soul, sort of a substantial thing that is amorphous and without shape and doesn’t change (in icons sometimes it looks like a jewel).
Another thing I’ve read, frequently in near-death experiences, people describe having a body. Some blind people have reported having vision for the first time, and people with missing limbs often describe having a limb in that place. Sometimes the body appears very physical, other times it is ethereal. Some people don’t even know initially they are dead, everything feels real.
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StAnastasia
Guest
That’s because they are not dead.Sometimes the body appears very physical, other times it is ethereal. Some people don’t even know initially they are dead, everything feels real.
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StAnastasia
Guest
But it can’t always be this way. It would seem odd to think that a deformed body has been produced by a deformed soul, or that a headless body shapes a “headless soul.”The christian concept of the soul isn’t insubstantial. The soul and body are so intimately united that the body shapes the soul and the soul preserves the form of the body. Souls are not considered as wispy mists of vapor but as a distinguishing part of a whole…
StAnastasia
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Benadam
Guest
I think as it pertains to the soul, since it is spiritual the bodies enfluence on it’s appearance isn’t primarily corporeal but of the moral order. But they aren’t mutually exclusive since corporeal changes can shape the soul if their cause is of the moral order. This of course is a view from the light of faith but may contribute to a creative exchange of ideas.But it can’t always be this way. It would seem odd to think that a deformed body has been produced by a deformed soul, or that a headless body shapes a “headless soul.”
StAnastasia
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Daedelus76
Guest
Pam Reynolds underwent clinical death to have an aneurysm operated on. To perform this operation, it involves stopping the heart and chilling the body with no blood in the brain, leading to no EEG response (they use earphones to produce sounds, looking for spikes on the EEG to indicate brain response). She reported leaving her body and hovering near the ceiling, looking down at her body, describing medical instruments and conversations in detail, then she left the operating room, saw her life pass before her eyes, and went into a bright light, seeing deceased relatives and strangers, and conversed with them (“Is the light God?” “No, the light is the breath of God”). Her uncle had to force her to leave and pushed her away right at the same time she heard a defibrilator. After this, she returned to her body and she described it as diving into icewater.That’s because they are not dead.
In most cases the out-of-body/near-death experience begins when the heart stops. Out-of-body/near-death experiences are also very common in children undergoing open-heart surgery.
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Benadam
Guest
I believe that their can be a consciousness outside of the body but i’m not sold on the afterlife it presents. The OB experience in other cultures is different. In Asia they are more likely to experience a green field or a cool meadow rather than a light or tunnel. This leads me to believe at least that part is not outside the body.Pam Reynolds underwent clinical death to have an aneurysm operated on. To perform this operation, it involves stopping the heart and chilling the body with no blood in the brain, leading to no EEG response (they use earphones to produce sounds, looking for spikes on the EEG to indicate brain response). She reported leaving her body and hovering near the ceiling, looking down at her body, describing medical instruments and conversations in detail, then she left the operating room, saw her life pass before her eyes, and went into a bright light, seeing deceased relatives and strangers, and conversed with them (“Is the light God?” “No, the light is the breath of God”). Her uncle had to force her to leave and pushed her away right at the same time she heard a defibrilator. After this, she returned to her body and she described it as diving into icewater.
In most cases the out-of-body/near-death experience begins when the heart stops. Out-of-body/near-death experiences are also very common in children undergoing open-heart surgery.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Right – she wasn’t dead. “Clinical death” is by definition not death.Pam Reynolds underwent clinical death to have an aneurysm operated on. … In most cases the out-of-body/near-death experience begins when the heart stops. Out-of-body/near-death experiences are also very common in children undergoing open-heart surgery.
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