The soul as "form" of the body?

[davidv]

If the soul is not made of anything materially, no matter, no energy, etc, then what does it mean to say it survives death?

Is it made of something spiritually? What would that mean?

If the soul is the animating **principle **of the human, why does it need to made of anything.

For example, what is the **principle **of non contradiction made of?

 

[catholic1seeks]

If the soul is the animating **principle **of the human, why does it need to made of anything.

For example, what is the **principle **of non contradiction made of?

How can a “principle” live on its own, be conscious, etc?

 

[GEddie]

How can a “principle” live on its own, be conscious, etc?

It can’t. Life requires the body; consciousness, the head. But it can continue in existence.

Without the human body, there is literally nobody. But the spiritual body will restore fullness of life.

ICXC NIKA

 

[catholic1seeks]

It can’t. Life requires the body; consciousness, the head. But it can continue in existence.

Without the human body, there is literally nobody. But the spiritual body will restore fullness of life.

ICXC NIKA

Some would say the human person continues. We say we “pray TO Padre Pio” not that we or ay to his soul. Besides, even if the person was separate from the soul in such a way, how could the Catholic understanding of the intercession of saints even be possible – if there is no consciousness?

 

[catholic1seeks]

Bump - for I still see this as problematic.

Is the best we can say is that we are too finite to understand the nature of spirit? We often are tempted to imagine the soul as some light, or energy, or ectoplasm, or gaseous flowy material. Think of alleged sightings of ghosts, for example.

But it is none of this: Spirit is not material at all. So are we helpless here? Can we not even begin to understand the nature of a human soul? What does it mean to say a spirit is an intellect and will? Our souls survive death are supposedly conscious (think of the intercession of saints).

Some have replied saying a spirit is a principle. But that doesn’t make sense. A principle is abstract: yet our souls survive death, really and truly.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Bump - for I still see this as problematic.

Is the best we can say is that we are too finite to understand the nature of spirit? We often are tempted to imagine the soul as some light, or energy, or ectoplasm, or gaseous flowy material. Think of alleged sightings of ghosts, for example.

But it is none of this: Spirit is not material at all. So are we helpless here? Can we not even begin to understand the nature of a human soul? What does it mean to say a spirit is an intellect and will? Our souls survive death are supposedly conscious (think of the intercession of saints).

Some have replied saying a spirit is a principle. But that doesn’t make sense. A principle is abstract: yet our souls survive death, really and truly.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Bump - for I still see this as problematic.

Is the best we can say is that we are too finite to understand the nature of spirit? We often are tempted to imagine the soul as some light, or energy, or ectoplasm, or gaseous flowy material. Think of alleged sightings of ghosts, for example.

But it is none of this: Spirit is not material at all. So are we helpless here? Can we not even begin to understand the nature of a human soul? What does it mean to say a spirit is an intellect and will? Our souls survive death are supposedly conscious (think of the intercession of saints).

Some have replied saying a spirit is a principle. But that doesn’t make sense. A principle is abstract: yet our souls survive death, really and truly.

Aquinas and Aristotle thought that material things are a composition of form and matter.
The form of something is an abstraction. Plato believed that the forms of things existed in reality on their own apart from any particular implementation of them. He had a more extreme realism. However, Aristotle and Aquinas had a more moderate realism. The form of something is really a way of describing something. But that description is really an abstraction. For example, the form of a triangle as having 3 sides does not actually exist on its own, but is an abstraction in our minds. It might exist in a particular triangle, but the universal form of all triangles does not actually exist like Plato thought. And nor does the particular triangle’s form continue to exist if that triangle is destroyed.

The word ‘soul’ is used instead of form when describing the form of something that is alive. Yet, for Aquinas it is still an abstraction. In fact Aquinas believed the animal soul ceased to exist when the animal died. The only reason that Aquinas believed the human soul continued to exist is because it was given something that no other animal had. And that is to be created in the image and likeness of God. Wisdom 2 calls it in the image of God’s immortality. And that we were not created for death. Aquinas says that the human soul was given the powers of intellect and will. And that this separates us from the animals and really all material things.

For every material or animal thing its form or soul corresponds completely 1:1 with its body. There is nothing that exists in the soul that does not correspond to its body. Thus, when the body dies the soul simply ceases to exist except as an abstraction in someone’s mind.

However, in humans that which comes to us from God as the intellect and will does not correspond 1:1 with the body. There is nothing for instance in the brain or any organ that can act as an intellect or a will. Indeed, no material thing or even a robot can not have an intellect or a will. It is physically impossible, despite what neurosurgeons or mathematicians say. Matter simply can not think about anything.

Thus, in humans something already exists apart from the body, the immaterial mind. And, thus, since it already survives apart from the body, it can continue to exist when the body dies. Aquinas thought we were given these powers of intellect in order that we can know God. And that this was the highest use of our intellect.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

What does it mean to say the human soul is the form of the body?
I try my best to research Catholic definitions of the soul, and the mental image I have of “form” is as if the soul is to water as the body is to a cup. But a soul is not material, and so is not “within” or extended in space, right?

So what does it actually mean to say the soul is the form of the body? What is the soul?

If it is the “form” of the body, how can exist independently of the body (e.g., death)?

“…The soul is to water as the body is to a cup …”

Water can be manipulated to freeze and to evaporate. If we say the soul is to water, then would it not have the ability to transform as water does given the right circumstances? In a cup of water we can freeze it and heat it. This will also cause the cup to expand and contract in reaction to the water; which sometimes causes destruction to the cup.

What is the soul? It is a mystery that is embraced and loved by God.

 

[Wesrock]

Bump - for I still see this as problematic.

Is the best we can say is that we are too finite to understand the nature of spirit? We often are tempted to imagine the soul as some light, or energy, or ectoplasm, or gaseous flowy material. Think of alleged sightings of ghosts, for example.

But it is none of this: Spirit is not material at all. So are we helpless here? Can we not even begin to understand the nature of a human soul? What does it mean to say a spirit is an intellect and will? Our souls survive death are supposedly conscious (think of the intercession of saints).

Some have replied saying a spirit is a principle. But that doesn’t make sense. A principle is abstract: yet our souls survive death, really and truly.

But this isn’t what we’ve said. The soul is only a co-principle of existence for material beings. It does not persist on its own. The soul is a category. It’s like asking if the category of an apple exists even if all apples are wiped out of existence. Yes, that category, that concept is still available to be grasped by a mind, regardless of whether it’s associated with anything material in existence. It’s not just floating out there as a ghost, though. It’s just a concept.

So what continues after death? The human intellect, which is necessarily immaterial. Within Thomism there’s a debate about whether the Intellect alone retains the soul of a human being or not (or to be less technical, whether we can properly call an Intellect without a material body a human being), but the point is that it’s not the soul persisting, but the Intellect.

You’re mixing up Descartes definition of a soul (which is also the one used in popular media) with Aquinas’. It is not the same.

 

[Giggly_Giraffe]

Sorry for the continual questions.

So if the soul/mind is not a substance and does not exist like a “thing” in space, then what does it mean for the mind to “persist” after death? It still exists, but what does this mean? I guess I have a hard time imagining something that exists yet cannot be pointed to.

What does it mean for a mind to persist during dementia/Alzheimer’s? Will the soul get lost like the mind if a disease corrupts it?

 

[GEddie]

What does it mean for a mind to persist during dementia/Alzheimer’s? Will the soul get lost like the mind if a disease corrupts it?

If, as held by Saint Augustine, our minds are spiritual, then they only go into an abeyance during unconsciousness, illness or death. Everlasting life and the spiritual body will restore them.

Consider the mind as a service on the Internet and the human head as a terminal. During a power outage or a system crash, one is offline, but once the hardware is services or replaced, one is back on.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Vico]

What does it mean to say the human soul is the form of the body?
I try my best to research Catholic definitions of the soul, and the mental image I have of “form” is as if the soul is to water as the body is to a cup. But a soul is not material, and so is not “within” or extended in space, right?

So what does it actually mean to say the soul is the form of the body? What is the soul?

If it is the “form” of the body, how can exist independently of the body (e.g., death)?

The person is a composite: soul and body. The soul exists without the body (that what per se belongs to something cannot be removed from it) but the body does not exist without the soul. They are partial substances. When the body dies, the person no longer exists, but the soul remains, and the person exists again when the body is resurrected and reunited to the soul.

 

[catholic1seeks]

But this isn’t what we’ve said. The soul is only a co-principle of existence for material beings. It does not persist on its own. The soul is a category. It’s like asking if the category of an apple exists even if all apples are wiped out of existence. Yes, that category, that concept is still available to be grasped by a mind, regardless of whether it’s associated with anything material in existence. It’s not just floating out there as a ghost, though. It’s just a concept.

So what continues after death? The human intellect, which is necessarily immaterial. Within Thomism there’s a debate about whether the Intellect alone retains the soul of a human being or not (or to be less technical, whether we can properly call an Intellect without a material body a human being), but the point is that it’s not the soul persisting, but the Intellect.

You’re mixing up Descartes definition of a soul (which is also the one used in popular media) with Aquinas’. It is not the same.

So then how can the intellect, being purely immaterial, exist on its own?

Second, how to we integrate such an understanding of the soul with the robust doctrine of communion of saints and their intercession? Praying TO an individual saint, for example.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Aquinas and Aristotle thought that material things are a composition of form and matter.
The form of something is an abstraction. Plato believed that the forms of things existed in reality on their own apart from any particular implementation of them. He had a more extreme realism. However, Aristotle and Aquinas had a more moderate realism. The form of something is really a way of describing something. But that description is really an abstraction. For example, the form of a triangle as having 3 sides does not actually exist on its own, but is an abstraction in our minds. It might exist in a particular triangle, but the universal form of all triangles does not actually exist like Plato thought. And nor does the particular triangle’s form continue to exist if that triangle is destroyed.

The word ‘soul’ is used instead of form when describing the form of something that is alive. Yet, for Aquinas it is still an abstraction. In fact Aquinas believed the animal soul ceased to exist when the animal died. The only reason that Aquinas believed the human soul continued to exist is because it was given something that no other animal had. And that is to be created in the image and likeness of God. Wisdom 2 calls it in the image of God’s immortality. And that we were not created for death. Aquinas says that the human soul was given the powers of intellect and will. And that this separates us from the animals and really all material things.

For every material or animal thing its form or soul corresponds completely 1:1 with its body. There is nothing that exists in the soul that does not correspond to its body. Thus, when the body dies the soul simply ceases to exist except as an abstraction in someone’s mind.

However, in humans that which comes to us from God as the intellect and will does not correspond 1:1 with the body. There is nothing for instance in the brain or any organ that can act as an intellect or a will. Indeed, no material thing or even a robot can not have an intellect or a will. It is physically impossible, despite what neurosurgeons or mathematicians say. Matter simply can not think about anything.

Thus, in humans something already exists apart from the body, the immaterial mind. And, thus, since it already survives apart from the body, it can continue to exist when the body dies. Aquinas thought we were given these powers of intellect in order that we can know God. And that this was the highest use of our intellect.

Ok, so when we say the human soul survives death, we don’t necessarily mean an abstract form. We mean the immaterial mind. But how can a mind exist independently of the body or brain?

 

[catholic1seeks]

If, as held by Saint Augustine, our minds are spiritual, then they only go into an abeyance during unconsciousness, illness or death. Everlasting life and the spiritual body will restore them.

Consider the mind as a service on the Internet and the human head as a terminal. During a power outage or a system crash, one is offline, but once the hardware is services or replaced, one is back on.

ICXC NIKA

So what about the dead now? Are they “offline”–and if so, how can we pray to anyone other than God and those with bodies in Heaven (namely, Jesus and Mary)?

 

[kdbueno]

The soul is conceived according to Marian Trinitarian conception. The body is readily known according to God’s divinity.

 

[catholic1seeks]

The soul is conceived according to Marian Trinitarian conception. The body is readily known according to God’s divinity.

I’m not sure how that relates the question! But thank you for your reply.

 

[Richca]

Ok, so when we say the human soul survives death, we don’t necessarily mean an abstract form. We mean the immaterial mind. But how can a mind exist independently of the body or brain?

Substantial forms and accidental forms just don’t have an abstract existence. They are real entities, realities. They have existence outside our minds in things. In the doctrine of hylemorphism, composite substances are composed of the substantial form and matter. The substantial form and matter are real entities that compose the substance of material substances. All material substances have accidents too, the accidents are forms and they comprise the remaining nine catergories of Aristotle’s ten categories of being; substance is the first category.

A human being is composed of a spirit (soul, the substantial form) and body (matter). A spirit is a being with intellect and will (free will), for example, humans, angels, and God. Spirits are persons. The traditional definition of a person is an individual substance of a rational nature. Being that the soul of human beings is a spirit with intelligence and will, it survives the death of the body and continues in existence after the manner of the angels and God who are pure spirits. The blessed in heaven (the souls in purgatory too) who have died in their bodies here on earth know and love God with their intellect and will because their spirits do not cease to exist after death. A spirit does not have material parts for it to be corrupted such as our bodies do here on earth. The human body or the human brain is not the spirit or soul or intellect or will. The human body is the ‘matter’ of a human being whose form is the spirit or soul. The substantial forms of plants and animals are also called souls but they are not spirits.

Since a human being (human nature) is composed of both a spirit and body, Aquinas says that the souls of the departed whether they are in heaven, purgatory, or hell are not complete persons or human beings. This does not mean that the departed souls do not know and love such as the souls in heaven or purgatory; the souls in heaven have the beatific vision and are eternally happy, they know and love God immensely and they have great concern for us here on earth and God makes it known to them when we ask them for prayers. What Aquinas means is that since a human being is a spirit / body composite and the departed souls are without their bodies till the resurrection, then until the resurrection when we will rise with our bodies, the departed souls are without a complete human nature. God made the spirits of human beings to be in a body and without a body such separated spirits are in a way incomplete. Again, a human being (human nature) is not a spirit alone or a body alone, but both together. Human beings by nature are not pure spirits like the angels or God. Accordinly, one of the articles of the catholic faith is that we believe in the resurrection of the body after the example of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Ok, so when we say the human soul survives death, we don’t necessarily mean an abstract form. We mean the immaterial mind. But how can a mind exist independently of the body or brain?

Aquinas believed it survives by the will of God. Aquinas would describe the intellect and the will as powers. That is God given powers of the human soul. And which the ultimate purpose of is to know and love God.

 

[fisherman_carl]

What does it mean for a mind to persist during dementia/Alzheimer’s? Will the soul get lost like the mind if a disease corrupts it?

Under Descartes dualism view this can be a problem to explain. Since if the soul and the body are completely separate substances than why is the mind so affected by the health of the brain? However, under the hylemorohic view, the soul is the form of the body, including the brain. And this means the soul and the body are intimately linked. This is why they are considered one substance. And the catechism calls the soul the form of the body saying the body and soul are linked and not separate substances. So, rather than Alzheimer’s causing a diminished mind being a problem for hylemorphism it is rather what we would expect to see, since they are not separate substances, but are intimately linked, like form and matter.