The source of forgiveness

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clem456

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What is the source of forgiveness?

On what is our capacity to forgive founded? Is it something we were naturally born with, or does it flow from something else?

Whatever you think this source of forgiveness is, what are it’s attributes? To whom does it extend? How do we personally know what forgiveness is?

Is forgiveness the satisfaction of a bargain (tit for tat, as we like to say), or is it completely gratuitous?

And are we called to forgive in the same way as the source, or as we would will it ourselves?

(if possible, could we stay away from the topic of what absolution is, and what true repentance is…those might be good for another thread)
 
clem456 said:
What is the source of forgiveness?

On what is our capacity to forgive founded? Is it something we were naturally born with, or does it flow from something else?

Whatever you think this source of forgiveness is, what are it’s attributes? To whom does it extend? How do we personally know what forgiveness is?

Is forgiveness the satisfaction of a bargain (tit for tat, as we like to say), or is it completely gratuitous?

And are we called to forgive in the same way as the source, or as we would will it ourselves?

(if possible, could we stay away from the topic of what absolution is, and what true repentance is…those might be good for another thread)
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Forgiveness flows from God. It is part of our nature to love others and forgiveness flows from love. And God is love.

Forgiveness should be completely gratuitous. Otherwise we call it a contract 🙂

True forgiveness should take place regardless of the other party’s willingness to forgive.

Christ forgives us…all of us…whether we want it or not
 
Jon_S said:
Forgiveness flows from God. It is part of our nature to love others and forgiveness flows from love. And God is love.

Forgiveness should be completely gratuitous. Otherwise we call it a contract 🙂

True forgiveness should take place regardless of the other party’s willingness to forgive.

Christ forgives us…all of us…whether we want it or not
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Since God is the source of it…
Do you think that a person who has not accepted their own need for forgiveness, from God himself, can forgive others?
Can I be forgiving if I have not first experienced it from God?
I am thinking of the incarnation here, God becomes human and participates in the misery of every human being, in order to forgive all.

Since forgiveness is not a contract, does it extend to others who do not appear to specifically harm us as individuals?
Or is it “out of sight, out of mind”?
 
The source of forgiveness…

Well, I was about to say

The heart wherein the Holy Spirit resides; I have been beaten to the punch!!
 
clem456 said:
Since God is the source of it…
Do you think that a person who has not accepted their own need for forgiveness, from God himself, can forgive others?
Can I be forgiving if I have not first experienced it from God?
I am thinking of the incarnation here, God becomes human and participates in the misery of every human being, in order to forgive all.

Since forgiveness is not a contract, does it extend to others who do not appear to specifically harm us as individuals?
Or is it “out of sight, out of mind”?
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That is an interesting question.

So I will ask you a question.

If God is the source of love, can someone who denies God even exists…love?
 
In the only prayer Jesus taught us, we are told to pray

'Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us’.

I take this to mean that unless we forgive others, we ourselves cannot be forgiven. After all, to be saved by Christ is to be forgiven all our sins, so how can we be forgiven and then hold on to a lack of forgiveness towards someone else? The parable of the Unforgiving Servant also teaches this (Matt 18:21-35).
 
Jon_S said:
That is an interesting question.

So I will ask you a question.

If God is the source of love, can someone who denies God even exists…love?
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I would say yes they can, because God is working in the heart of every person, for every person, whether they reject him or not.
 
clem456 said:
I would say yes they can, because God is working in the heart of every person, for every person, whether they reject him or not.
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So if the ability to love is not conditional on accepting God, I do not see how the ABILITY to forgive would be any different.

That said, the WILLINGNESS to forgive is greatly dependent on knowing God, his forgiveness of us, and his love for us, and a desire to show that to the world.

Without God, the ability and perhaps even the call to forgive is there. But the hardness of heart, or reason as to “why bother” is a hindrance to actually forgiving in some cases.
 
I am really interested in exploring this theme that forgiveness is not a contract which has as it’s aim the mere satisfaction of debts between specific individuals.

And it seems the model for this could be the cross, in which Christ offers forgiveness and reconciliation to all, even the vast majority who did not specifically drive a nail into his hands. It seems this forgiveness is based on the fact that God is the source of forgiveness, and all of us are in need of it.

Why did Christ become human to accomplish this, and what does it tell us about our relationships with others?
 
clem456 said:
I am really interested in exploring this theme that forgiveness is not a contract which has as it’s aim the mere satisfaction of debts between specific individuals.

And it seems the model for this could be the cross, in which Christ offers forgiveness and reconciliation to all, even the vast majority who did not specifically drive a nail into his hands. It seems this forgiveness is based on the fact that God is the source of forgiveness, and all of us are in need of it.

Why did Christ become human to accomplish this, and what does it tell us about our relationships with others?
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I have often wondered why God became man to do this and why he suffered the cross. Why not just shout from the heavens…Here I am! Be Good! Forgive…because I forgive you all!

But then I realize, if that happened it would be pure fable today.

God chose an avenue that we can relate to, that we can interact with, and that he could demonstrate to us practically.

It is sort of the difference between learning how to be a woodworker from a book as opposed to going out and meeting the master carver and learning alongside him.

As for the cross, so much has been written and could be said, but at its root, I think it is a demonstration of the greatest love God has for his people.

“No greater love hath a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”
 
What is the source of forgiveness?
God the Father through Jesus Christ
-Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed.
-Jer 31:34 No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, ‘Know the LORD,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest,” declares the LORD. “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more.”
-Psa 130:4 But with you there is forgiveness, so that we can, with reverence, serve you.
-Act 13:38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
-Ephesians 1:7 “He is so rich in kindness and grace that he purchased our freedom with the blood of his Son and forgave our sins.”

On what is our capacity to forgive founded?
God’s forgiveness for you and the capacity is unlimited forgiveness
-Ephesians 4:31-32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
-Luk 17:4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”

Is it something we were naturally born with, or does it flow from something else?
Forgiveness comes through faith in Jesus Christ.
-Luk 5:20 When Jesus saw their faith, he said, “Friend, your sins are forgiven.”
-Act 26:17b -18 I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

**Whatever you think this source of forgiveness is, what are it’s attributes? **
I know that forgiveness comes From God; some of the attributes as follows:


  1. *]Our own forgiveness
    a.-Mark 11:25 “And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”
    b.-Mat 6:14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
    c.-Mat 6:15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive
    your sins.

    • *]Forgiveness for others
      a.-Jhn 20:23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not
      forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

      • *]Healing
        a.-Mar 2:9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?

        • *]The right to be children of God – forgiveness comes by faith in Jesus Christ (salvation/eternal life)
          a.-Jhn 1:12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

          To whom does it extend?
          Everyone
          -Act 10:43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

          How do we personally know what forgiveness is?
          -Ephesians 4:31-32 “Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.”
          -1Th 5:15 Make sure that nobody pays back wrong for wrong, but always strive to do what is good for each other and for everyone else.
          -Mar 12:31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

          Is forgiveness the satisfaction of a bargain (tit for tat, as we like to say), or is it completely gratuitous?
          It is gratuitous / grace.
          Gratuitous 1) uncalled for; lacking good reason; unwarranted. 2) given or done free of charge.
          Grace (in Christian belief) the free and unmerited favor of God, as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowal of blessings.
          God has already forgiven us of our sins we don’t receive that forgiveness until we acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
          -Rom 3:23-24 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

          And are we called to forgive in the same way as the source, or as we would will it ourselves?
          We must forgive as the Lord did… from your heart.
          -Col 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.
          -Mat 18:35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

          The Lord bless you and keep you
 
Jon_S said:
I have often wondered why God became man to do this and why he suffered the cross. Why not just shout from the heavens…Here I am! Be Good! Forgive…because I forgive you all!

But then I realize, if that happened it would be pure fable today.

God chose an avenue that we can relate to, that we can interact with, and that he could demonstrate to us practically.

It is sort of the difference between learning how to be a woodworker from a book as opposed to going out and meeting the master carver and learning alongside him.

As for the cross, so much has been written and could be said, but at its root, I think it is a demonstration of the greatest love God has for his people.

“No greater love hath a man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”
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Also, his entering fully into the human condition allows him to identify with our misery, and so offer forgiveness to all through that identification.
So it seems to me, it follows that we DO each drive the nail into his hands, even though we did not live 2000 years ago.
40 … Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
…
45…Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
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All become one in Jesus Christ.
 
Why did Christ become human to accomplish this, and what does it tell us about our relationships with others?

First: Jesus Christ had to come as a man to fulfill prophecy… there are many prophecies regarding Jesus.
-Isaiah 9:6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us. The government will rest on his shoulders. And he will be called: Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
-Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.

Second: Jesus Christ had to come because the sacrifice of bulls and goats was not acceptable. The blood of bulls and goats only cleansed the outside of the person not the conscience of mankind.
  • Hbr 9:11-14 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!
  • Hbr 10:4-7 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll— I have come to do your will, my God.’ ”
Third: Jesus Christ had to come to condemn sin in the flesh of sinful man.
  • Rom 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
  • 1Pe 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
Fourth: Jesus Christ had to come to give us peace in this life and the age to come.
  • Eph 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
Fifth: Jesus Christ had to come to give us an example of humility, to serve others and to be obedient; we then don’t have any excuse…
  • Phl 2:5-11 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Sixth: Jesus Christ came to show God’s love to the world.
  • Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
**Seventh: **Jesus Christ came to buy our souls, so that no one whether believer or unbeliever in heaven or on Earth could deny the Lord Jesus Christ.
  • Mat 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
  • Act 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
  • 1Cr 7:23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings.
**Eighth: **Jesus Christ came so that we may become victorious through faith in Him.
  • Rev 3:19-22 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”
There are many, many more… The Lord bless you and keep you.
 
jeshuaelshaddai said:
Why did Christ become human to accomplish this, and what does it tell us about our relationships with others?

Third: Jesus Christ had to come to condemn sin in the flesh of sinful man.
  • Rom 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
  • 1Pe 2:24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
Fourth: Jesus Christ had to come to give us peace in this life and the age to come.
  • Eph 2:13-16 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
Fifth: Jesus Christ had to come to give us an example of humility, to serve others and to be obedient; we then don’t have any excuse…
  • Phl 2:5-11 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Sixth: Jesus Christ came to show God’s love to the world.
  • Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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These three are especially instructive to me in my relationships with others.
 
jeshuaelshaddai said:
Why did Christ become human to accomplish this, and what does it tell us about our relationships with others?
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Continued…

Ninth: Jesus Christ came to die to destroy power of Satan… God cannot die but God in the form of man can die.
-Hbr 2:14-18 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil—and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants.For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

Tenth: Jesus Christ came to be the firstborn.
-Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
-Col 1:15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
-Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
-Hbr 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
-Hbr 12:23-24 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
-Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood,

**Eleventh: ** Jesus Christ came to be judge over the living and the dead
-Act 10:42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.

Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because whoever suffers in the body is done with sin. As a result, they do not live the rest of their earthly lives for evil human desires, but rather for the will of God.For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do—living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. They are surprised that you do not join them in their reckless, wild living, and they heap abuse on you. But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

This is not a self inflicted suffering this is a suffering that comes from denying the desires of the flesh; and suffering that comes from the insults, slander, mockery that one may receive because of your faith in Jesus Christ.
 
clem456 said:
All become one in Jesus Christ.
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Here’s the beautiful explanation offered by Pope Benedict XVI in “Deus caritas est”:
  1. We have seen that God’s eros for man is also totally agape. This is not only because it is bestowed in a completely gratuitous manner, without any previous merit, but also because it is love which forgives.
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Hosea above all shows us that this agape dimension of God’s love for man goes far beyond the aspect of gratuity. Israel has committed “adultery” and has broken the covenant; God should judge and repudiate her. It is precisely at this point that God is revealed to be God and not man: “How can I give you up, O Ephraim! How can I hand you over, O Israel! … My heart recoils within me, my compassion grows warm and tender. I will not execute my fierce anger, I will not again destroy Ephraim; for I am God and not man, the Holy One in your midst” (Hos 11:8-9). God’s passionate love for his people—for humanity—is at the same time a forgiving love. It is so great that it turns God against himself, his love against his justice. Here Christians can see a dim prefigurement of the mystery of the Cross: so great is God’s love for man that by becoming man he follows him even into death, and so reconciles justice and love.
/…/
14. Here we need to consider yet another aspect: this sacramental “mysticism” is social in character, for in sacramental communion I become one with the Lord, like all the other communicants. As Saint Paul says, “Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread” (1 Cor 10:17). Union with Christ is also union with all those to whom he gives himself. I cannot possess Christ just for myself; I can belong to him only in union with all those who have become, or who will become, his own.
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Communion draws me out of myself towards him, and thus also towards unity with all Christians. We become “one body”, completely joined in a single existence. Love of God and love of neighbour are now truly united: God incarnate draws us all to himself. We can thus understand how *agape *also became a term for the Eucharist: there God’s own agape comes to us bodily, in order to continue his work in us and through us. Only by keeping in mind this Christological and sacramental basis can we correctly understand Jesus’ teaching on love.
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The transition which he makes from the Law and the Prophets to the twofold commandment of love of God and of neighbour, and his grounding the whole life of faith on this central precept, is not simply a matter of morality—something that could exist apart from and alongside faith in Christ and its sacramental re-actualization. Faith, worship and ethos are interwoven as a single reality which takes shape in our encounter with God’s agape. Here the usual contraposition between worship and ethics simply falls apart. “Worship” itself, Eucharistic communion, includes the reality both of being loved and of loving others in turn. A Eucharist which does not pass over into the concrete practice of love is intrinsically fragmented. Conversely, as we shall have to consider in greater detail below, the “commandment” of love is only possible because it is more than a requirement. Love can be “commanded” because it has first been given.
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vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html
 
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