The Sovereignty of God – a discussion on a very difficult topic…

[Christian_Unity]

http://chronolect.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/john_calvin_21-274x300.jpg

Hey, are you talking about me?

 

[rinnie]

If you want to call the chastisement of God that leads to repentance as ‘grace’, I am not going to argue with you.

I want to make it clear that I see a difference between the initial humbling of oneself, and the gift of humility.

The initial humbling of one’s soul which turns itself to God and away from self, and sin is called repentance.

This initial turning of one’s soul to God leads ultimately to the waters of baptism and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit. It is through these sacraments that we are gifted with the graces to continue in humility, but even then, nothing is guaranteed.

I do not believe in the doctrine of ‘once saved, always save’. It takes the active cooperation one’s own will in submitting to the will of God if we are to continue in the way of salvation.

The apostle Paul admonishes us 'not to grieve the Holy Spirit, ‘not to quench the Holy Spirit’, and ‘not to resist the Holy Spirit,’. This tells me, that we must daily humble our souls before God to avoid quenching, resisting and grieving the Holy Spirit.

So, if you want to call chastisement a ‘grace’, I will not pursue the definition,
it does not benefit either one of us to do so.

God’s peace be with you

micah

It is not a question of once saved always saved. OSAS has nothing to do with this at all.
And as a RC I know there is no such thing as OSAS,

And rather we humble ourself to God or we refuse to humble ourself before God, it is still done with the grace and goodness of God.

We cannot humble ourself without that Grace from God given to us to do so. Nothing good is done by oneself. All goodness comes from God not from Self. That is the point I am trying to drive home here.

 

[Christian_Unity]

It is not a question of once saved always saved. OSAS has nothing to do with this at all.
And as a RC I know there is no such thing as OSAS,

And rather we humble ourself to God or we refuse to humble ourself before God, it is still done with the grace and goodness of God.

We cannot humble ourself without that Grace from God given to us to do so. Nothing good is done by oneself. All goodness comes from God not from Self. That is the point I am trying to drive home here.

Just for clarification, Reformed theology (Calvinism) does not teach OSAS.

 

[rinnie]

Just for clarification, Reformed theology (Calvinism) does not teach OSAS.

Thats good to hear.

Hopefully no religion will teach that.

Its nice to think Christ did it all for us, and we don’t have our own part in it. But unfortunately Christ gave us our part, to repent, and be cleansed of the sin, And although we have that great gift of confession, and although we must do our part, Christ still does the main part in granting us forgiveness.

But although our intentions to rid oneself of sin are sincere, we still need the grace of God to help us along the way.

We as Catholic’s rely on the grace of God to do anything, Because we know without God nothing is possible, but with God all thing’s are possible.

We don’t believe we could possibly humble ourself to our Lord, without his grace and help in doing so.

Although we indeed rely on Christ for Everything, when we have our own part to do, its still by his grace that we can even do our part.

I think that is the point we are trying to get accrossed to Mercytruth, but we seem to be failing.

I think when mercy thinks about the point we are tying to say she will come to agree with us. Sometimes we are missing the point people are trying to make to us.

I do it alot myself! Just ask anyone here, Sometimes I am the queen of it!

 

[Radyj]

Just for clarification, Reformed theology (Calvinism) does not teach OSAS.

I know several individuals attending a baptist seminary, in our discussions one of the more prevalent ones is on OSAS, while they may admit that someone falls from faith they back up their ideas with the common “they weren’t really saved to begin with”

 

[Radyj]

I know several individuals attending a baptist seminary, in our discussions one of the more prevalent ones is on OSAS, while they may admit that someone falls from faith they back up their ideas with the common “they weren’t really saved to begin with”

I should have also mentioned they claim to espouse reformed Calvinistic teachings

 

[Christian_Unity]

I should have also mentioned they claim to espouse reformed Calvinistic teachings

Calvinism believe in perseverance of the saints and not OSAS (contemporary modern day idea):

The means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

Perseverance may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart is continued and brought to competition. It is because God never forsakes His work that believers continue to stand to the very end.
Louis Berkhof from Systematic Theology (pg. 546)

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all those who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints - those who are set apart by the Spirit - who persevere to the end. It is believers - those who are given true, living faith in Christ - who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from grace for they were never in grace. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith gives the following statement on this doctrine:
They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Boettner is certainly correct in asserting that This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. The following verses show that God’s people are given eternal life the moment they believe. they are kept by God’s power through faith and nothing can separate them from His love. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who has been given as the guarantee of their salvation, and they are thus assured of an eternal inheritance.
David Steele & Curtis C Thomas from The Five Points of Calvinism (pg. 56)

Perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine that God infallibly preserves in faith all of those he has given to the Son (John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65) so that they are never lost. It maintains that none who are truly redeemed by Christ can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith. For as the apostle Paul states in Philippians 1:6, “I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
Monergism.com

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/Perseverance-of-Saints/

 

[guanophore]

Few people while on earth, arrive at this perfection, or Divine union with God which occurs during the ‘second night’.

3. And this first night pertains to beginners, occurring at the time when God begins to bring them into the state of contemplation; in this night the spirit likewise has a part, as we shall say in due course. And the second night, or purification, pertains to those who are already proficient, occurring at the time when God desires to bring them to the state of union with God. And this latter night is a more obscure and dark and terrible purgation, as we shall say afterwards.

The Ascent of Mt.Carmel, Book I, chapter 3. St. John of the Cross

God’s peace be with you

micah

I don’t think St. John is talking about “perfection” here but “purification”. In fact, anyone who is serious about growing in their relation ship with God is in thsi second night. It is the daily process of facing what is in our lives that separates us from God, and through working out our salvation with fear and trembling, conforming our lives daily more and more to HIs service. This is what it means to become sanctified, to bear the fruit that befits repentence.

 

[guanophore]

  If one reads what St. John of the Cross writes concerning the dark night of the spirit, he describes it as living through purgatory on earth. St. Paul says that we are 'to work out our salvation with trembling and fear'.

I think you hit this nail on the head. This is a normal process for the healthy Christian life. I am not sure why you think “very few people” reach this. Do you think most Christians are not serious about growing more Christlike?

Everyone of us is given the choice of denying ourselves, and taking up our cross daily. It is is a conscious decision to humble our will to the will of God. God will not force us to humble our wills to His own will.

It is an invitation,a nd a command, but we are not puppets or compelled to comply. You are right that this is the daily expectation of all who claim to be disciples of Christ.

This seems to me to represent the meaning of St. Paul in when he says that we are to 'work out our salvation in trembling and fear.' We 'must labor to enter into His rest'. Our labor is to humble our will in obedience to His own will, otherwise I doubt whether we will enter into His will, or into His rest.

Yes, it is a constant challenge to set our ego aside and to be continually open to His grace, so that He can work within us to will and to do His good pleasure.

It seems to me, that unless we labor to submit our wills to God's will,  we will be fighting against the will of God, though we do not consciously know it to be as such.

God’s peace be with you

micah

Yes. Fortunately, God has multiple ways to make such things conscious to us, so that we can have what we need to work on in front of us.

 

[guanophore]

My reply to you and to Anthony V is that a 'holy soul' is the wrong choice of words. I should have said a soul without sin.

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, we are in agreement on this point. God did not create man in sin, or for sin.

 God does not impart a soul within us that is marred with sin. Our souls become marred with sin through the temptations that come through the flesh, the world, and the devil.

If I understand you correctly, then this statement is not consistent with Catholic doctrine. All souls that have been born since the Fall of Adam and Eve have been born into original sin.

What you are saying is also true, that our souls become even more marred through the flesh, the world,a nd the devil, but not through temptation. Temptation, of itself, is not a sin, nor does it necessarily lead to sin. When temptation is met with grace, holiness results. When temptation gives birth to sin, the soul is more marred.

This whole subject of 'original sin' has been influenced by other doctrines that could be interpreted in other ways.  Without getting into those specific doctrines, I decline to say anything further.

It seems like you really do need to get into them, mercytruth You are pandering yourself as a Catholic, yet you are promoting non-Catholic faith. This is not good for a public forum. It seems like a misrepresentation of the truth.

I know what the scriptures say about ' our sinful flesh' inclination, and I know what the early church fathers said. I know that genetically speaking, we are imperfect natural human beings who are inclined to all sorts of addictions, alcoholism for one, in Native Americans and others just for one example.

But it seems that you have an erroneous idea of where that inclination came from, and the results of it. Your theories are inconsistent with Catholic faith.

Fallen human nature, (not the soul), a fallen world, and fallen angels are the three sources of temptations which lead our soul into sin.

I am curious what you think “the soul” is, since you are apparently excluding it from human nature. That is a very curious position, and also not Catholic.

I do agree with you though, fallen human nature, the world, and fallen angels are three temptations that lead into sin.

 

[Anthony_V]

Calvinism believe in perseverance of the saints and not OSAS (contemporary modern day idea):

I have some comments and questions regarding this.

The means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

Is baptism necessary to being born again?

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

Are Christians, who are called to live in communion with one another as the Body of Christ, stewards of the faith? [BIBLEDRB]Luke 12:42[/BIBLEDRB]

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

This seems utterly contrary to Christian mysticism, and creates a dichotomy where there is none–that is, that security ultimately rests in God or in the faithful. We cannot (at least in my own experience as a Christian) live in community if we do not know our relationship with God. God the Holy Spirit, through Christ, is the binding force on the Christian Churches which makes them into the Body of Christ. Can a person discern if they are not in God’s favor? How can this be differentiated from the sin of despair? This idea, in general, as always posed some very practical issues for me.

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

How can you claim to have been sanctified? It seems to me that, within this system, any sort of security in the person is seen as “evil”, a presumptuous sin. We have to always be afraid of God, not resting in the peace of God.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 11:28[/BIBLEDRB]

Perseverance may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart is continued and brought to competition. It is because God never forsakes His work that believers continue to stand to the very end.
Louis Berkhof from Systematic Theology (pg. 546)

God never forsakes his work–yes. But do men? Love does not fail, men do. Love is mutual, not a puppet play. If God gives us the faculties to love him, grace, are we forced to love him? That paints a scary picture.

[BIBLEDRB]John 15:15[/BIBLEDRB]

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all those who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints - those who are set apart by the Spirit - who persevere to the end. It is believers - those who are given true, living faith in Christ - who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from grace for they were never in grace. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith gives the following statement on this doctrine:
They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

So sanctification–to make holy–is by count of justification? That God is disgusted with our sinful nature, but then “covers it up” to make it look all better, without really making it all better? That seems to be totally against the notion of being “born again”, where we are literally transformed to be given a new life, which is the Life of Christ.
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Boettner is certainly correct in asserting that This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. The following verses show that God’s people are given eternal life the moment they believe. they are kept by God’s power through faith and nothing can separate them from His love. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who has been given as the guarantee of their salvation, and they are thus assured of an eternal inheritance.
David Steele & Curtis C Thomas from The Five Points of Calvinism (pg. 56)

…

I will make no comment on this portion, directly. Do you take Romans 3:23 entirely and fully literally?

 

[Radyj]

Calvinism believe in perseverance of the saints and not OSAS (contemporary modern day idea):

The means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

Perseverance may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart is continued and brought to competition. It is because God never forsakes His work that believers continue to stand to the very end.
Louis Berkhof from Systematic Theology (pg. 546)

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all those who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints - those who are set apart by the Spirit - who persevere to the end. It is believers - those who are given true, living faith in Christ - who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from grace for they were never in grace. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith gives the following statement on this doctrine:
They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Boettner is certainly correct in asserting that This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. The following verses show that God’s people are given eternal life the moment they believe. they are kept by God’s power through faith and nothing can separate them from His love. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who has been given as the guarantee of their salvation, and they are thus assured of an eternal inheritance.
David Steele & Curtis C Thomas from The Five Points of Calvinism (pg. 56)

Perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine that God infallibly preserves in faith all of those he has given to the Son (John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65) so that they are never lost. It maintains that none who are truly redeemed by Christ can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith. For as the apostle Paul states in Philippians 1:6, “I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
Monergism.com

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/Perseverance-of-Saints/

Right, like I said, If someone falls from faith they were never really saved to begin with. seems rather a convenient way to mask the lack of substance in your argument.

 

[CopticChristian]

Calvinism believe in perseverance of the saints and not OSAS (contemporary modern day idea):

The means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

Perseverance may be defined as that continuous operation of the Holy Spirit in the believer, by which the work of divine grace that is begun in the heart is continued and brought to competition. It is because God never forsakes His work that believers continue to stand to the very end.
Louis Berkhof from Systematic Theology (pg. 546)

The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints does not maintain that all those who profess the Christian faith are certain of heaven. It is saints - those who are set apart by the Spirit - who persevere to the end. It is believers - those who are given true, living faith in Christ - who are secure and safe in Him. Many who profess to believe fall away, but they do not fall from grace for they were never in grace. True believers do fall into temptations, and they do commit grievous sins, but these sins do not cause them to lose their salvation or separate them from Christ. The Westminster Confession of Faith gives the following statement on this doctrine:
They whom God hath accepted in His Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace: but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.

Boettner is certainly correct in asserting that This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved. The following verses show that God’s people are given eternal life the moment they believe. they are kept by God’s power through faith and nothing can separate them from His love. They have been sealed with the Holy Spirit who has been given as the guarantee of their salvation, and they are thus assured of an eternal inheritance.
David Steele & Curtis C Thomas from The Five Points of Calvinism (pg. 56)

Perseverance of the saints is the biblical doctrine that God infallibly preserves in faith all of those he has given to the Son (John 6:37, 39, 44, 63-65) so that they are never lost. It maintains that none who are truly redeemed by Christ can be condemned for their sins or finally fall away from the faith. For as the apostle Paul states in Philippians 1:6, “I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.”
Monergism.com

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/Perseverance-of-Saints/

CU,

I ask you to take a step back as it is my duty to help you. The Catechsim of the USA says the following…

Ecumenism includes efforts to pray together, joint study of the Scripture and of one another’s traditions, common action for social justice, and dialogue in which the leaders and theologians of the different churches and communities discuss in depth their doctrinal and theological positions for greater mutual understand¬ing, and “to work for unity in truth” (UUS, nos. 18, 29). In dialogue the obligation to respect the truth is absolute. “The unity willed by God can be attained only by the adherence of all to the content of revealed faith in its entirety” (UUS, no. 18).

Dialogue is a form of evangelization. It is a way of making Christ and his Gospel known to others, while at the same time respecting their freedom of conscience and adherence to their own religious tradition. The Church has received from Christ the mandate to make him known

Dialogue must be in truth and where something is in question, has not always been true and does not bear truth it must be accepted as not true. This would be in order to aid you to understand that while you are teaching Calvinism, it is not true, has not always been true and in the spirit of evangelization must ask you to understand that while respecting your point of view I suggest you change your perspective so as to bear witness to what you believe to be true while understanding that it has elements of truth that skew from the deposit of Faith of the Apostles.

 

[JamesATyler]

To trust God in all things, we must first understand that He has the power and ability to accomplish all things according to His will. How can we trust God in all things if we do not believe He can accomplish all that He wills? There is application to this madness… mostly growing in faith and trust in God. We know faith pleases God, right?

I think I understand your point of view and I think I understand why it is an attractive faith. I could easily be wrong though so let me explain it in very simplistic terms. When good or bad things happen, I have heard many many people say something to the effect of it being God’s will. I can see that they believe all things are by God’s design. Its attractive because they don’t really have to deal with the idea that things can go off the Plan. In retrospect, we could even look all the way back to Adam and Eve and say that, even then, everything was transpiring according to God’s will including their fall from grace. This gives reality the feel of destiny mixed with providence if you believe your saved.

I think it actually works like this. We humans develop our plans from our own creative mind and will. We really do have the ability to create! That’s a part of our gift. We seek to execute those plans but God guides us in ways which are not easy to understand. He’s mysterious. Our plans change and evolve as we go though life.

Contrasting these two views I would equate the Lord as walking ahead of us while we follow but not walking in my shoes and body moving my legs and feet here or there like possession. And neither is he micromanaging my intentions, will, and emotions. So, I can deviate from the Lord and “fall into a pit” because what I want and what I feel is truly real and all my own. Then the Lord, hopefully, if he wills, will help me get out of the pit and forgive my folly. It wasn’t his plan that I fell into a pit. But the Lord can hopefully, because of his great wisdom and intellect, create a new plan that redeems me and increases my wisdom.

This is the way I view Adam and Eve. They sinned not because God willed it. However, God created a new plan for the redemption of mankind and Adam and Eve. Consider for a moment how deep their real sadness must have been.

Its written that God can do all things and that nothing is impossible for God. But I don’t think that he is supreme because he uses his power to control all things and to create reality as if it were a script. A story which interests him, that only he can author, except its very cruel because his creations are real thinking and feeling creatures who may or may not end up in eternal pain, not because they willed to do evil, but because they were authored that way and God willed that they be evil.

What then is their sin if they are evil by God’s design? And if no one has the power to disobey God, then who has the power to sin? And if God has scripted everything from the beginning to the end, and no one has the ability to change one word of it, then who should burn? And if God would deal unjustly with his creatures on earth in this chapter of God’s script, then what will God do to his creatures in the Age to come? Do you think your safe because you do his will? Because you love him?You can’t help but to do his will and love him, if that’s what he wants, but that won’t necessarily save you from tortures of his heaven.

What if he decides that there will be a new rebellion in Heaven? What if he decides you will be a rebel? Do you really think that God decides to hate some and so plots against them in a way from which there is no hope of escape because he can make or remake you as evil? Do you think God is a child playing with little animals in a sandbox?

Friend, this is a real world, and we are real people with real minds and real hearts and so is God. There is no script. The truth is that God will overcome the world on the day that only he knows, just as it is written. When it comes to faith, we just have to trust that God is doing things in such a way that he can save as many people from sin as possible.

 

[Christian_Unity]

I hope you guys understand our differences are rooted in our mutual exclusive sources of final authority, correct? Until we understand this point, we will be going in circles without really understanding how we arrive in what we each believe. Let me quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith so you can understand how I discern truth:

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.[16]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]

 

[CopticChristian]

I hope you guys understand our differences are rooted in our mutual exclusive sources of final authority, correct? Until we understand this point, we will be going in circles without really understanding how we arrive in what we each believe. Let me quote from the Westminster Confession of Faith so you can understand how I discern truth:

IV. The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, depends not upon the testimony of any man, or Church; but wholly upon God (who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the Word of God.[9]

V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scripture.[10] And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it does abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.[11]

VI. The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for His own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.[12] Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word:[13] and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the Church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature, and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.[14]

VII. All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all:[15] yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed for salvation are so clearly propounded, and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them.[16]

IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself: and therefore, when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched and known by other places that speak more clearly.[23]

X. The supreme judge by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scripture.[24]

CU,

This is all very interesting. Have you read Moby Dick?

 

[Christian_Unity]

I have some comments and questions regarding this.

Is baptism necessary to being born again? Reformed people generally do not believe in baptismal regeneration. Lutherans can be considered Reformed and would have another answer than mine. I would say baptism is an obedient act and a means of sanctifying grace; therefore, the sacrament of baptism is not necessary for being born from above.

Are Christians, who are called to live in communion with one another as the Body of Christ, stewards of the faith? [BIBLEDRB]Luke 12:42[/BIBLEDRB]
Sure

This seems utterly contrary to Christian mysticism, and creates a dichotomy where there is none–that is, that security ultimately rests in God or in the faithful. We cannot (at least in my own experience as a Christian) live in community if we do not know our relationship with God. God the Holy Spirit, through Christ, is the binding force on the Christian Churches which makes them into the Body of Christ. Can a person discern if they are not in God’s favor? How can this be differentiated from the sin of despair? This idea, in general, as always posed some very practical issues for me. I think this is one of our biggest differences. Our confidence rests in the promises of God reveal in the Scripture, and our understanding of a forensic justification. I believe in adoption through propitation, so our security rest in Christ alone;

How can you claim to have been sanctified? It seems to me that, within this system, any sort of security in the person is seen as “evil”, a presumptuous sin. We have to always be afraid of God, not resting in the peace of God.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 11:28[/BIBLEDRB] Sanctified as in set apart or sanctified as in the lifetime process of growing in pesonal holiness and obedience? Again, the secrutiy is in the promises of God and our understanding of justification and sanctification which is quite different than the Catholic Faith on these issues.

God never forsakes his work–yes. But do men? Love does not fail, men do. Love is mutual, not a puppet play. If God gives us the faculties to love him, grace, are we forced to love him? That paints a scary picture.

[BIBLEDRB]John 15:15[/BIBLEDRB] I would agree men do fail, but God’s grace is sufficent for us. God’s discipline in Hebrews 12 would be also grace too.

So sanctification–to make holy–is by count of justification? That God is disgusted with our sinful nature, but then “covers it up” to make it look all better, without really making it all better? That seems to be totally against the notion of being “born again”, where we are literally transformed to be given a new life, which is the Life of Christ.
[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB] Our differences is a forensic justification.

I will make no comment on this portion, directly. Do you take Romans 3:23 entirely and fully literally?

Maybe I would understand that verse in context from Romans 3:21 through Romans 5:21. I think Reformed theology on justificaton would rest quite a bit in the section of Romans I quoted above. I think quite a bit of Reformed doctrine on justifcation and sanctification would be builit from the book of Romans and Galatians.

 

[CopticChristian]

Maybe I would understand that verse in context from Romans 3:21 through Romans 5:21. I think Reformed theology on justificaton would rest quite a bit in the section of Romans I quoted above. I think quite a bit of Reformed doctrine on justifcation and sanctification would be builit from the book of Romans and Galatians.

CU,

This would be valid with a proper understanding of Moby Dick.

 

[Christian_Unity]

Right, like I said, If someone falls from faith they were never really saved to begin with. seems rather a convenient way to mask the lack of substance in your argument.

I think Scripture would testify to that reality on that particular issue in both the OT church and NT church. Sheep and goats, and wheat and tares in the church were taught by Jesus in the gospel accounts. Israel always had a mix of sheep and goats too. I think Catholic theology would have a more difficult time explaining why not all in the Catholic Church will end up in Heaven. For those Catholics who will not make it to Heaven, would you say that they were sheep that changed to goats? Since the sacrament of baptism is considered the new birth where one becomes an adopted child of God, what would you say about those Catholics who don’t end up in Heaven; were they ever adopted children of God that were once united to Christ?

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. - Rom 2

 

[Christian_Unity]

Originally Posted by Christian Unity
Maybe I would understand that verse in context from Romans 3:21 through Romans 5:21. I think Reformed theology on justificaton would rest quite a bit in the section of Romans I quoted above. I think quite a bit of Reformed doctrine on justifcation and sanctification would be builit from the book of Romans and Galatians.

CU,

This would be valid with a proper understanding of Moby Dick.

That’s okay. We can simply disagree agreeably. I’m here to compare and contrast our beliefs so I can best represent the Catholic Faith in accuracy on other Forum sites consisting of both Catholics and Protestants in Christian fellowship with each other. The better I understand the Catholic Faith, the better the fellowship will flow between the two Christian communities.