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Valtiel
Guest
How many of the rumors behind this artifact are true, such as it has powerful occult powers and what not…
Dicuss…
Dicuss…
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brotherhrolf
Guest
That would be the spear of Longinus, the centurion. I may not have my facts correct but I believe it was found by St. Helena, the Emperor Constantine’s mother, when she found the true cross. It is said that Hitler obtained it before WWII and that the one that exists today is not the “real” one.
As an archaeology major (undergrad and grad), I would approach this with a great deal of skepticism. On the other hand, St. Peter really is buried under St. Peter’s. There are many mysteries from the past - the Shroud of Turin, the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, Veronica’s Veil, etc. I would be hard pressed to prove them scientifically but who would have thought that Schliemann would actually discover Troy? Faith is, after all, the evidence of things not seen.
As an archaeology major (undergrad and grad), I would approach this with a great deal of skepticism. On the other hand, St. Peter really is buried under St. Peter’s. There are many mysteries from the past - the Shroud of Turin, the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, Veronica’s Veil, etc. I would be hard pressed to prove them scientifically but who would have thought that Schliemann would actually discover Troy? Faith is, after all, the evidence of things not seen.
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Bobby_Jim
Guest
I think the spear figures prominently in the opera Parsifal by Wagner, in which the title character acquires said spear, which has formidable healing powers. Some fragment of this story also appears in the 1980s spy thriller “The Parsifal Mosaic”, by Robert Ludlum, which is a pretty good read.
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BibleReader
Guest
I spent years studying the occult. It’s real, and it can be accessed by anyone. There are two ways to access it – by studious meditation, which takes a long time and much practice; and by consummate personal corruption, by for instance, mixing drugs and sex. The second way is referred to as “the dark way” by some occultists. I believe that many people are making contact with the occult – essentially, with demons – unintentionally, by engaging in extremely immoral activity such as I mentioned – drugs or sex sin or, better yet, a mix of the two.
I don’t know what role things like “The Spear of Destiny” used as a “talisman” play in accessing the occult. My personal suspicion is that personal moral corruption attracts occultic beings – demons – because normally they can’t see people in a state of grace, but massive personal corruption makes the sinner “glow brightly” in some sense, so that they can see him. I also suspect that sin “dirties” the places in which it occurs – perhaps by making them something like the negative counterpart of relics – so that demons can see such places, and somehow “attach,” generating what we called a “haunted house.”
No matter what, I am told that the Bible, and the Church, advises, “STAY AWAY” from the occult.
I don’t know what role things like “The Spear of Destiny” used as a “talisman” play in accessing the occult. My personal suspicion is that personal moral corruption attracts occultic beings – demons – because normally they can’t see people in a state of grace, but massive personal corruption makes the sinner “glow brightly” in some sense, so that they can see him. I also suspect that sin “dirties” the places in which it occurs – perhaps by making them something like the negative counterpart of relics – so that demons can see such places, and somehow “attach,” generating what we called a “haunted house.”
No matter what, I am told that the Bible, and the Church, advises, “STAY AWAY” from the occult.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
BibleReader: We seem to be discussing two different things here. I was talking about the actual physical spearhead used by a Roman soldier to pierce Jesus’ side to ensure that he was dead. It may or may not exist. If it exists, it has a host of supposed “powers” to it which have been commented down through the ages.
From what you have posted, it would seem that the spearhead is not an actual artifact, but a “locus” for accessing some other state of mind either through meditation or through sex and drugs.
Think about this. If the spear actually existed, and had actually been coated with the blood and water of Our Lord, why would it be a “locus” for accessing evil? How could something which pierced the side of Our Lord possibly be a “locus” for accessing evil?
The spear could be put to bad abuse in the same way the Holy Eucharist can be put to bad abuse (e.g. think eBAy). But that does not affect the essential nature of the spear or the Holy Eucharist.
From what you have posted, it would seem that the spearhead is not an actual artifact, but a “locus” for accessing some other state of mind either through meditation or through sex and drugs.
Think about this. If the spear actually existed, and had actually been coated with the blood and water of Our Lord, why would it be a “locus” for accessing evil? How could something which pierced the side of Our Lord possibly be a “locus” for accessing evil?
The spear could be put to bad abuse in the same way the Holy Eucharist can be put to bad abuse (e.g. think eBAy). But that does not affect the essential nature of the spear or the Holy Eucharist.
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Chris_Jacobsen
Guest
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mark_a
Guest
Chris Jacobsen:
I found the above quote from the link interesting.
"The various versions of Catholic history and hagiography, like most other teachings of the RCC, are not always in agreement. "
I found the above quote from the link interesting.
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BibleReader
Guest
We are talking about the same thing. The Austrians believe that they have the spearhead in Vienna, in a museum in the Imperial Palace known as the Hofburg.
You ask me, “Why would it be a ‘locus’ for accessing evil? How could something which pierced the side of Our Lord possibly be a ‘locus’ for accessing evil?” I don’t know why some occultists think that. I said that though I studied the occult, I don’t understand talismans. Perhaps they are like “anti-relics” – much in the occult is an evil “mirror-image” of things found in Catholicism – which “attract” evil in the same way relics “attract” good. And, I don’t fully understand the thinking about the spearhead. I was merely saying what I do know to be true – that many occultists believe that the spearhead is a talisman for accessing the power of the evil occult. Perhaps they infer from the fact that the spear was used to assault the body of our Lord that the spearhead is some kind of tool of “champions of evil” – I really am not sure.
Adolf Hitler was a dark occultist. He belonged to an organization which accessed “the dark side” of the occult in meetings where the organization’s members used to ingest peyote from Mexico and then embark on bisexual sex orgies, supposedly enabling them to cultivate such a locus of evil in one place that they enabled demonic phenomena and demonic contact. (One of my clients was one of the GIs who siezed Hitler’s castle in the German Alps. When he and the other soldiers broke into Hitler’s office in the castle, he saw that the walls were covered with pictures of nude girls engaging in outrageously obscene acts. Those pictures would have had the purpose of ongoingly cultivating an “aura” of evil in that place and in Hitler’s mind, supposedly abetting contact with the evil occult, via “the dark way.”)
Hitler also believed that the spearhead was a talisman abetting access to “the dark side” of the occult. After Hitler seized control of Austria in the Anschluss, he personally walked into the Hofburg and took possession of the spearhead. He had it put in an underground vault in Nuremberg. Patton, who was extremely well-read, had the spearhead delivered to himself after Hitler’s defeat, and caused the spearhead to be returned to the Hofburg.
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Wildgraywolf
Guest
I thought this quote from sxws.com/charis/relics8.htm was very disturbing…
Reformer Jean Chauvin (John Calvin), in his Admonitio de Reliquiis, reported that the spear of Longinus was being kept at Glastonbury Abbey, in England. He added that the abbey also possess a vial of the Virgin’s milk. I find it interesting that the Virgin would have been passing out samples of her breast milk or that people would have been interested in having them, since Christ did not start His public ministry until some 30 years after he was born. Of course, she had at least six other kids, so she likely spent a lot of years lactating.
Reformer Jean Chauvin (John Calvin), in his Admonitio de Reliquiis, reported that the spear of Longinus was being kept at Glastonbury Abbey, in England. He added that the abbey also possess a vial of the Virgin’s milk. I find it interesting that the Virgin would have been passing out samples of her breast milk or that people would have been interested in having them, since Christ did not start His public ministry until some 30 years after he was born. Of course, she had at least six other kids, so she likely spent a lot of years lactating.
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LSK
Guest
I agreewith you. I, too, doubt the Blessed Virgin would have passed out samples of her breast milk. It sounds like John Calvin was still caught up in the need for strange relics AND the need to ‘prove’ that his church was better than THE Church.
For the record, Catholics do not believe Our Blessed Mother had other children - our Church teaches she remained a Virgin and the ‘brothers’ refered to in Holy Scripture are either step-children or cousins as there was no word for either in the language of the time. I refer to the Catechism of the Holy Mother Church.
**499 **The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.
For the record, Catholics do not believe Our Blessed Mother had other children - our Church teaches she remained a Virgin and the ‘brothers’ refered to in Holy Scripture are either step-children or cousins as there was no word for either in the language of the time. I refer to the Catechism of the Holy Mother Church.
**499 **The deepening of faith in the virginal motherhood led the Church to confess Mary’s real and perpetual virginity even in the act of giving birth to the Son of God made man. In fact, Christ’s birth “did not diminish his mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it.” And so the liturgy of the Church celebrates Mary as Aeiparthenos, the “Ever-virgin”.
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BibleReader
Guest
That IS pretty sick stuff.
But I have to add that I GET CRAZILY ANGRY AT THOSE WHO PROFESS THE DOCTRINE OF “IN-PARTU VIRGINITY” FOR THE EXACT SAME REASON.
Instead of simply stating that Jesus was simply born like one of us (see Wisdom 7:4-6), those excessively-zealous Marian Catholics focus-in on Mary’s personal region and talk about how the flesh in her personal region remained like that of a virgin.
It fills me with rage to even hear someone talk like that!!!
And if you disagree with their bizarre, obscene imaginings, they respond, “How DARE you think about or discuss Mary’s personal region!!!”
ARRRRRRRRRRGH!!!
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mark_a
Guest
Some Catholics do get hung up on these details exactly like some Protestants accuse us of doing.
One that bugs me is the relics of the true cross. Are there splinters of this all over the world?
Who in the world would have the stupidity to break this up into a gazillion pieces?
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Ghosty
Guest
Actually, that’s exactly what they did with the wood they believed to be of the true cross. It’s no different than taking bones from saints and distributing them around the world.
Now whether all the existing fragments belong to the objects/people they claim is another matter, but Christians have been doing such things for years. It’s not unlike taking a piece of rubble from an important building that’s been demolished.
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mark_a
Guest
Which seems to me is contrary to the CCC. Even cremains are not to be separated, scattered, mixed, etc.,etc. and should be properly laid to rest.
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Ghosty
Guest
The reason that cremated remains aren’t to be scattered is because that’s a traditionally pagan practice that was contrary to the idea of the resurection. Taking relics of saints, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite in that it affirms the belief that their remains are directly tied with their still-living souls.
It was once against Catholic belief to be cremated at all, so that’s more a matter of discipline and culture. It was a European Catholic custom to keep and distribute relics of saints, and the belief attached to it was not contrary to Scripture and so persisted.
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2shelbys
Guest
I have studied the Third Reich for over 30 years. I do not mean to attack you because there is so much wrong information out there about this subject, but everything you say here is absolute nonsense. Some of it has been featured in various TV shows but it is all completely unsubstantiated rumor that bears no resemblence to the truth. A better description of Hitler’s sexual past would be that of a loner (or in modern terms, a nerd) who never did well with the ladies at all. He also had a viscous hatred of homosexuality, and would NEVER have participated in any ritual that did not have strong Germanic (or Aryan) roots.
Again, absolute nonsense. Your client may have been convincing but he lied about this. The Berghof, Hitler’s house (not a castle by any stretch of the imagination) on the Obersalzberg was well documented in photos inside and out, before, during , and after the war. No pornography. Also, Hitler had such a distaste of pornography that he purged all even remotely explicit artwork (no matter who the artist) from German museums and other publc display, although he did allow nudes that “tastefully” showed the genetic superiority of the Germanic people. Some speculate that this distaste was founded in his lack of success with the opposite sex, but that can not be precisely proven or disproven in the abscence of psychiatric examination.
All unsubstantiated rumor. There are also rumors that the SS took the spear at the end of the war and replaced it with a fake. This is often quoted to explain why the spear has been proven to be a fake through dating of the various metals. The spear is definitely NOT of Roman origin, although there is apparantly a spike or nail at it’s core that could be much older than the spear itself. Some speculate that it may be a crucifiction nail but it has not yet been dated.
Patton was indeed well-read, but again all rumor. Patton never had any contact with the spear at any time. Testimony of various members of his immediate staff confirm this. They had never heard anything about it from Patton or anyone else.
Again, I understand how you could end up believing this stuff. There is a huge amount of bad information out there and the tendency is to believe anything bad said about Hitler. That tendency does not make it all true.
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BibleReader
Guest
Hi, 2shelbys.
Sorry, but the family agreed that that client was part of the Army units seizing Hitler’s Alpine residence. He said that he actually broke into Hitler’s office. He was clearly genuinely puzzled by the obscene murals, when he told me about them. (He was just an uneducated “mug” who thought it was strange that an all-powerful world leader should surround himself with life-size dirty pictures.) He returned to the location after the war, and said that someone covered-up the murals and turned the office into a cafeteria. He was the one who called Hitler’s residence in the Alps a “castle,” but that was probably because he grew up on a dirty little farm in Evesboro, New Jersey. I’ll believe that client before I’ll believe a WWII historian.
The source of the information on Hitler, personally, is Walter Stein, an Austrian scientist/occultist who knew Hitler personally who later become Churchill’s advisor, in London, on Hitler the man, as well as other writers whose names I can’t now recall, but I have them in my library. Hitler’s occultism and occult reading is simply beyond question. He was very, very much in touch with that 19th century occultism which evolved into antisemitism and Nazism. Hitler didn’t pop out of a vacuum. He was a sick, sick occultic pup.
Stein closely followed Hitler’s fanatical quest for possession of the Longinus spearhead, and as a member of Churchill’s staff learned that Patton walked into the vault under Nuremberg and found the spearhead, and had it returned to the Hofburg, where it rests to this day – well, at least when I checked, about ten years ago, when I was still reading about the occult.
Somewhere in my library I have a photo of Hitler walking into the Hofburg, after the Anschluss.
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2shelbys
Guest
Hello Biblereader,
By the way, we are straying well off the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss this further I would be happy to do so in a thread dedicated to this subject (although what place it has on a Catholic forum I do not know) or by private message.
I’m sorry as well, but either your client had a bad memory or he liked to make up stories. Whether or not his family believed him is of no consequence. The historical record on this is well documented and undeniable. Not only the photographic record of the Berghof (go to thirdreichruins.com/berghof.htm for a complete photographic record of the building from beginning to destruction), but the mountainous documentation and testimony about Hitler’s feelings about sexual issues. He was a sexual “dork”, not a pervert.
Again, absolute fantasy. Hitler’s home was gutted and almost completely destroyed in a massive RAF bombing raid on Wednesday, April 25, 1945, before the war ended. It remained a burned-out hulk until the ruins were destroyed by order of the Bavarian Government in 1952.
You will not believe someone who has devoted more than three decades to serious research but you will quote an occultist as a historical expert?
It is certainly NOT beyond question, it is disproven by actual historical record, and no, he was not “in touch” with any such thing. His more “pagan” beliefs were centered in far older Germanic and Aryan mythology. It was actually Heinrich Himmler (Reichsführer of the SS) who went off the deep end as far as being in touch with this ancient Aryan mythology, from teaching the runic alphabet to SS recruits to resurrecting ancient Germanic rituals (or his interpretation of them) for use at Wewelsberg Castle and in various SS celebrations.
Yet again, fantasy that has been proven wrong over and over and which is not supported by even one serious historian. The spear is indeed still in Austria, but as I said in my earler post it has been undeniably proven as a fake. It does not date from the Roman era and is not even similar in design. All of this makes an interesting story but none of it is true.
By the way, we are straying well off the topic of this thread. If you wish to discuss this further I would be happy to do so in a thread dedicated to this subject (although what place it has on a Catholic forum I do not know) or by private message.
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BibleReader
Guest
Hi, 2shelbys.
(1) Note well: All of the shots of the inside, before the bombing, were by who? Nazi photographers, or Allied photographers?
Nazis.
Now, how likely is it that you are going to see a *Nazi *shot of the inside of Hitler’s office, for public consumption, after the naked girls engaging in perverted sex are painted on the walls?
It’s about as likely as a Megan’s Law violator volunteering to wear a sign saying, “I molest children.”
So, the photographs at the site you gave us the hyperlink to really aren’t convincing.
(2) Notice that in the photos of Hitler’s office, *it’s as big as a cafeteria, isn’t it? *My client got that right, didn’t he?
(3) Notice that my client knew that American soldiers took the dwelling. Is he even one of the soldiers in the photos? In any event, he got that right, too.
(4) Next, note that one of the captions says that “German” tourists were prohibited from the site.
The caption implies that non-German tourists could go to the site.
Was a cafeteria built into the ruins for non-German tourists before it was destroyed?
You are assuming that it is nonsense that there was a cafeteria inside the ruins after 1945, before the 1952 destruction.
Well, in Philadelphia, there is a cafeteria inside the ruins of Fort Mifflin.
There are undoubtedly cafeterias inside historic ruins all over the world.
Don’t be too skeptical.
And, by the way, Hitler WAS an occultist.
The German occult was *built upon *that Aryan mythology nonsense. When you admit Hitler’s interest in that Aryan mythology, and I say that Hitler was an occultist, we are saying the same thing.
(1) Note well: All of the shots of the inside, before the bombing, were by who? Nazi photographers, or Allied photographers?
Nazis.
Now, how likely is it that you are going to see a *Nazi *shot of the inside of Hitler’s office, for public consumption, after the naked girls engaging in perverted sex are painted on the walls?
It’s about as likely as a Megan’s Law violator volunteering to wear a sign saying, “I molest children.”
So, the photographs at the site you gave us the hyperlink to really aren’t convincing.
(2) Notice that in the photos of Hitler’s office, *it’s as big as a cafeteria, isn’t it? *My client got that right, didn’t he?
(3) Notice that my client knew that American soldiers took the dwelling. Is he even one of the soldiers in the photos? In any event, he got that right, too.
(4) Next, note that one of the captions says that “German” tourists were prohibited from the site.
The caption implies that non-German tourists could go to the site.
Was a cafeteria built into the ruins for non-German tourists before it was destroyed?
You are assuming that it is nonsense that there was a cafeteria inside the ruins after 1945, before the 1952 destruction.
Well, in Philadelphia, there is a cafeteria inside the ruins of Fort Mifflin.
There are undoubtedly cafeterias inside historic ruins all over the world.
Don’t be too skeptical.
And, by the way, Hitler WAS an occultist.
The German occult was *built upon *that Aryan mythology nonsense. When you admit Hitler’s interest in that Aryan mythology, and I say that Hitler was an occultist, we are saying the same thing.
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BibleReader
Guest
By the way, the discussion is not off-topic. The title to the thread reads, “The spear that pierced the side of Christ…” The question in Post #1 reads, “How many of the rumors behind this artifact are true, such as it has powerful occult powers and what not…”
If indeed Adolf Hitler believed that that spearhead in the Hofburg was the spearhead which pierced Christ, we seem to be talking about exactly the same spearhead asked about by the one who began the thread.
You contested my discussion by saying, in part (inaccurately) that “Hitler was not an occultist.”
I.e., I’m discussing fantasy. (You even use the word “fantasy.”) Nothing like what I describe occurred. Therefore, when I say, “Yes, that spearhead WAS believed by some occultists to be a talisman, including by Adolf Hitler, himself,” I’m wrong – that in effect is your argument, right?
I’m sorry, but it is 100% on-topic.
If indeed Adolf Hitler believed that that spearhead in the Hofburg was the spearhead which pierced Christ, we seem to be talking about exactly the same spearhead asked about by the one who began the thread.
You contested my discussion by saying, in part (inaccurately) that “Hitler was not an occultist.”
I.e., I’m discussing fantasy. (You even use the word “fantasy.”) Nothing like what I describe occurred. Therefore, when I say, “Yes, that spearhead WAS believed by some occultists to be a talisman, including by Adolf Hitler, himself,” I’m wrong – that in effect is your argument, right?
I’m sorry, but it is 100% on-topic.
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