The Spiral Argument Argument

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Hi Contarini

I have another question:
Can we approach the Gospels like any other ancient text and reasonably conclude that the historical Jesus claimed that the Scriptures are inspired (as what seems to be Habermas’s point)?

Thanks,

Ike
 
Since it was established by God the Son, thus: All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20), your theory is totally false like all the others you concoct.

The name Catholic is from very early as you now know; Her teaching and governance extends to the whole world of nations and every sect calling itself in anyway “Christian” has adopted some of Her teaching while rejecting much.

But your fallacies always follow from the fact that you’ve rejected His clearly established Catholic Church as we see from these early cases of rejection – ‘breakaways have occurred right through history, beginning in Apostolic times. Simon Magus, mentioned in the New Testament, was really the forerunner of independent men who set up religions of their own. Christ Himself predicted that men would do this, saying, “There will arise false Christs and false prophets to seduce if possible even the elect.” Mk. XIII., 22. But in spite of this, He promised to His true Church, “I will be with you all days even to the end of the world.” In the first centuries there were heretical founders of rival Churches – men whose names are found only in textbooks of history – Montanus, Manichaeus, Arius, Donatus, etc. In later centuries we find the founders of the Greek Church, Photius and Michael Cerularius. And later still the founders of the various Protestant Churches–Luther, Henry VIII., John Knox, and a host of others. As the years go on, others will arise, linger for a time, and disappear. But the Catholic and Apostolic Church will go on with continued vitality till the end of time. Ever there will be in the world a Church able to trace itself back in an unbroken line to the Apostles; and that Church is the Catholic Church which is subject to the Pope as the successor of St. Peter, the chief of the Apostles.’
radioreplies.info/site-search.php?q=Magus&db=2
OK. But there is a balance needed for it is also noted the apostles could be cliquey,“we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” Jesus said they really are for us,looking at the bigger picture and their similar works.We have no Christological heresy
like many that you mentioned.
 
Hi Contarini

I have another question:
Can we approach the Gospels like any other ancient text and reasonably conclude that the historical Jesus claimed that the Scriptures are inspired (as what seems to be Habermas’s point)?

Thanks,

Ike
Well, he would have been a very odd Jew if he hadn’t!

There’s plenty of evidence, of course, that he was a very odd Jew, but not in that way.

Edwin
 
benhur #301
OK. But there is a balance needed for it is also noted the apostles could be cliquey,“we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” Jesus said they really are for us,looking at the bigger picture and their similar works.We have no Christological heresy like many that you mentioned.
While it is quite true that with most persons brought up in non-Catholic surroundings heresy is only material and implies neither guilt nor sin against faith, the teaching outside of Christ’s Catholic Church is subservient to divorce, contraception, abortion, euthanasia, and other grave errors.

The “balance” that is essential is to “seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you”, so that when the real teaching of Jesus is known – the foundation of His Church on St Peter with the commands Jesus gave which you now know – it is imperative to learn what Jesus teaches through His Church on faith and morals, not any and every distortion offered.

With that balance, then worship can be as He requires through the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass and Holy Communion, through validly ordained priests, and a life attuned to His moral teaching and His sacraments.
 
icamhif;12890515:
Hi Contarini

I have another question:
Can we approach the Gospels like any other ancient text and reasonably conclude that the historical Jesus claimed that the Scriptures are inspired (as what seems to be Habermas’s point
)?

Thanks,

Ike
Well, he would have been a very odd Jew if he hadn’t!

There’s plenty of evidence, of course, that he was a very odd Jew, but not in that way.

Edwin
True! 🙂
 
Well, he would have been a very odd Jew if he hadn’t!

There’s plenty of evidence, of course, that he was a very odd Jew, but not in that way.

Edwin
And how did this late work make the transition to being an apostolic witness, with some of the witnesses still alive and able to address its lateness and unapostolic source?
 
And how did this late work make the transition to being an apostolic witness, with some of the witnesses still alive and able to address its lateness and unapostolic source?
It wasn’t that late. As you say, the witnesses were still alive.
But relatively late compared to Mark–Luke I’m less sure about.

And I strongly incline to the opinion that the core of Matthew–the discourses scholars call “Q”–did have an apostolic source.
 
Contarini #306
I strongly incline to the opinion that the core of Matthew–the discourses scholars call “Q”–did have an apostolic source.
From 1907 to 1933 the Pontifical Biblical Commission stated emphatically:
‘Scholars are not free to advocate the two-source theory whereby Matthew and Luke are dependant on Mark and the “Sayings of the Lord” (“Q”).’
The New Biblical Theorists, Msgr George A Kelly, Servant Books, 1983, p 34].

Pope St. Pius X made the rulings of the Commission a part of the Magisterium, the supreme teaching authority of the Church. No one has any authority to challenge the Magisterium on teaching re faith and morals.

Even Joseph Fitzmyer admits in his book *To Advance The Gospel *(Crossroads, 1981, p 4) that the two-source theory remains unprovable.
 
From 1907 to 1933 the Pontifical Biblical Commission stated emphatically:
‘Scholars are not free to advocate the two-source theory whereby Matthew and Luke are dependant on Mark and the “Sayings of the Lord” (“Q”).’
The New Biblical Theorists, Msgr George A Kelly, Servant Books, 1983, p 34].

Pope St. Pius X made the rulings of the Commission a part of the Magisterium, the supreme teaching authority of the Church. No one has any authority to challenge the Magisterium on teaching re faith and morals.

Even Joseph Fitzmyer admits in his book *To Advance The Gospel *(Crossroads, 1981, p 4) that the two-source theory remains unprovable.
The strongest argument for Q IMHO is the number of passages that are identically worded in each Gospel, although sometimes embellished, and the number that are very, very close.

The biggest argument against it IMHO is no one ever seems to have mentioned it in the early church, and such a thing would have been of Great Interest.
 
While it is quite true that with most persons brought up in non-Catholic surroundings heresy is only material and implies neither guilt nor sin against faith,
Not sure about that, that heresy is not a sin, unless you are saying we believe more strongly in the dignity of free will and personal conviction within a man.
The “balance” that is essential is to “seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened to you”, so that when the real teaching of Jesus is known – the foundation of His Church on St Peter with the commands Jesus gave which you now know – it is imperative to learn what Jesus teaches through His Church on faith and morals, not any and every distortion offered.
Yes,the trouble and the beauty is that it is a triangular relationship. It is not just me and the church magisterium. The Lord is the third point. As Augustine exclaimed the superlativeness of Scripture , and the beauty of the church and her preachers, he also gloried in the Teacher of us all. So while the magisterium can guide me to know the Lord’s voice, the Lord’s voice also gives me discernment to proper teaching. Thus many Catholics preach a Church in which to find Jesus, others preach a Christ who puts you into His church.

So yes, seek Him out, whether in scripture, or a church, or in nature, for His wonders are everywhere.And back to the Apostles and our tendency to cliqueyness, we tend to say He is where and how we found Him. And some of that is ok, for what else are we to testify ? “I was once blind and now I see”.
 
It wasn’t that late. As you say, the witnesses were still alive.
But relatively late compared to Mark–Luke I’m less sure about.

And I strongly incline to the opinion that the core of Matthew–the discourses scholars call “Q”–did have an apostolic source.
How does that fact tie into Matthew’s reliability, Dr. Tait?

Isn’t it true that Matthew relies on both Mark and Q for a combined total of about 70% of his gospel?

How is then that Matthew should be considered historically unreliable when the lion’s share of his gospel are multiply attested by Mark and by Luke (who also quotes Q)?

It would seem that at least 70% of Matthew must be deemed historically reliable on the basis that historians accept Mark, Luke and Q as such.
 
Tomyris #308
The strongest argument for Q IMHO is the number of passages that are identically worded in each Gospel, although sometimes embellished, and the number that are very, very close.
Here are the realistic conclusions:
A Question of Priority
By: Karl Keating
Extracts:

‘The theory most in favor in recent decades has been that of Markan priority. It holds that Mark wrote first and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and from a collection of the “sayings of the Lord” known as Q (from the German Quelle, “source”). Mark is not only the shortest of the synoptic Gospels, it is the most simply written. Advocates of Markan priority say it makes more sense to think that Matthew and Luke expanded on Mark rather than that Mark reduced either Matthew or Luke.

‘….Dom Bernard Orchard, monk of Ealing Abbey and chief editor of the 1953 *Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (*which, along with its 1969 revision, are my favorite commentaries).

‘I find Orchard’s thesis persuasive, if not compelling, particularly since I hold, with writers such as Jean Carmignac and Claude Tresmontant, that all of the Gospels were written much earlier than advocates of Markan priority will allow. Besides, I think Q is a fantasy and that any such document, had it ever existed, would have been preserved, copied, and commented upon in antiquity just as the canonical books of the New Testament were, yet antiquity is entirely silent on Q.’
catholic.com/magazine/articles/a-question-of-priority

This is a compelling refutation of the “Q” theory which like all the other aberrations proposed try to belittle the teaching of Christ through His Church “that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach that [the] truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures.”

Here is another:
**Answer by Fr. John Echert on 22-July-1999 (EWTN): **
‘As a matter of fact, I am currently reading the work you ask about, The Hebrew Christ. As you note, the author, Claude Tresmontant, argues the thesis that there was likely a Hebrew text behind all four Gospels. He argues principally upon the vocabulary and structure of the Greek Gospel texts, noting that there appear to be the same principles and lexicon of sorts operative in the Gospels that were operative in translating the Hebrew text of the OT into the LXX. He goes through several texts of each of the Gospels to demonstrate the Semitic structure and speculates as to the Hebrew original. He argues that the original Hebrew texts were probably written soon after the Gospel period and translated not long after that. So he would date the Gospels earlier than what is popular today-as would I-and he also argues for an early dating of John relative to Luke and Mark. I am intrigued by his theory and his work to support his thesis. I am also a proponent of early dating for the Gospels and am not convinced of Markan priority or of the alleged “Q.”

‘As to why the scholarly world has not acknowledged this thesis or work, I am not surprised. Modern critics tend to be very critical and many are dismissive of anything that challenges in any way the status quo of current thinking in the field. No doubt they would argue that there is no evidence of Hebrew originals, apart from a reconstruction of the Greek text. But then again, the same may be said of “Q.” I recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in this area and has some facility with Hebrew and Greek. Without linguistic skills, however, this book may be difficult for many readers. Another writer to be noted, now deceased, is John A.T. Robinson who is cited several times in *Hebrew Christ *and argued from another perspective for an early dating of the Gospels.
Thanks, Dave’ [My underlining]
 
Here are the realistic conclusions:
A Question of Priority
By: Karl Keating
Extracts:

‘The theory most in favor in recent decades has been that of Markan priority. It holds that Mark wrote first and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and from a collection of the “sayings of the Lord” known as Q (from the German Quelle, “source”). Mark is not only the shortest of the synoptic Gospels, it is the most simply written. Advocates of Markan priority say it makes more sense to think that Matthew and Luke expanded on Mark rather than that Mark reduced either Matthew or Luke.

‘….Dom Bernard Orchard, monk of Ealing Abbey and chief editor of the 1953 *Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (*which, along with its 1969 revision, are my favorite commentaries).

‘I find Orchard’s thesis persuasive, if not compelling, particularly since I hold, with writers such as Jean Carmignac and Claude Tresmontant, that all of the Gospels were written much earlier than advocates of Markan priority will allow. Besides, I think Q is a fantasy and that any such document, had it ever existed, would have been preserved, copied, and commented upon in antiquity just as the canonical books of the New Testament were, yet antiquity is entirely silent on Q.’
catholic.com/magazine/articles/a-question-of-priority
Abu-

Just a thought…what if Matthew and Luke ARE the copies of Q that Dom Orchard says are missing? 🤷
 
From 1907 to 1933 the Pontifical Biblical Commission stated emphatically:
‘Scholars are not free to advocate the two-source theory whereby Matthew and Luke are dependant on Mark and the “Sayings of the Lord” (“Q”).’
The New Biblical Theorists, Msgr George A Kelly, Servant Books, 1983, p 34].

Pope St. Pius X made the rulings of the Commission a part of the Magisterium, the supreme teaching authority of the Church. No one has any authority to challenge the Magisterium on teaching re faith and morals.

Even Joseph Fitzmyer admits in his book *To Advance The Gospel *(Crossroads, 1981, p 4) that the two-source theory remains unprovable.
How is Markan priority and the Two-Source hypothesis a “challenge” to any Catholic doctrine?
 
How does that fact tie into Matthew’s reliability, Dr. Tait?

Isn’t it true that Matthew relies on both Mark and Q for a combined total of about 70% of his gospel?

How is then that Matthew should be considered historically unreliable when the lion’s share of his gospel are multiply attested by Mark and by Luke (who also quotes Q)?

It would seem that at least 70% of Matthew must be deemed historically reliable on the basis that historians accept Mark, Luke and Q as such.
And that’s what I’ve said consistently. But the nature of the differences from his source material, particularly Mark, seems to indicate a tendency to elaborate theological points where Mark has more cryptic stories. There are also the odd little stories found nowhere else, which scholars as conservative as Licona and Blomberg think may not be literal narratives (the dead rising at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, in Licona’s case; the fish with the coin in its mouth, in Blomberg’s).

Your argument doesn’t make sense. I have never suggested that most of Matthew is unhistorical. I have suggested that where he differs from his source material, normal historical analysis would incline one to the suspicion that he is not very reliable. Of course this isn’t certain, and if you think that conclusion is not consonant with the Faith then I don’t think you need suffer any great intellectual dissonance in rejecting it. But it’s the conclusion one would normally come to if treating the text as if it were any other book, which is, again, supposedly the premise here.

Edwin
 
Not sure about that, that heresy is not a sin, unless you are saying we believe more strongly in the dignity of free will and personal conviction within a man.
.
Actually yes [formal] heresy–obstinate denial of the truth–is a sin. Wrong opinion, per se, is not.

Edwin
 
Here are the realistic conclusions:
A Question of Priority
By: Karl Keating
Extracts:

‘The theory most in favor in recent decades has been that of Markan priority. It holds that Mark wrote first and that Matthew and Luke borrowed from him and from a collection of the “sayings of the Lord” known as Q (from the German Quelle, “source”). Mark is not only the shortest of the synoptic Gospels, it is the most simply written. Advocates of Markan priority say it makes more sense to think that Matthew and Luke expanded on Mark rather than that Mark reduced either Matthew or Luke.

‘….Dom Bernard Orchard, monk of Ealing Abbey and chief editor of the 1953 *Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (*which, along with its 1969 revision, are my favorite commentaries).

‘I find Orchard’s thesis persuasive, if not compelling, particularly since I hold, with writers such as Jean Carmignac and Claude Tresmontant, that all of the Gospels were written much earlier than advocates of Markan priority will allow. Besides, I think Q is a fantasy and that any such document, had it ever existed, would have been preserved, copied, and commented upon in antiquity just as the canonical books of the New Testament were, yet antiquity is entirely silent on Q.’
catholic.com/magazine/articles/a-question-of-priority

This is a compelling refutation of the “Q” theory which like all the other aberrations proposed try to belittle the teaching of Christ through His Church “that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error, teach that [the] truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the sacred Scriptures.”

Here is another:
**Answer by Fr. John Echert on 22-July-1999 (EWTN): **
‘As a matter of fact, I am currently reading the work you ask about, The Hebrew Christ. As you note, the author, Claude Tresmontant, argues the thesis that there was likely a Hebrew text behind all four Gospels. He argues principally upon the vocabulary and structure of the Greek Gospel texts, noting that there appear to be the same principles and lexicon of sorts operative in the Gospels that were operative in translating the Hebrew text of the OT into the LXX. He goes through several texts of each of the Gospels to demonstrate the Semitic structure and speculates as to the Hebrew original. He argues that the original Hebrew texts were probably written soon after the Gospel period and translated not long after that. So he would date the Gospels earlier than what is popular today-as would I-and he also argues for an early dating of John relative to Luke and Mark. I am intrigued by his theory and his work to support his thesis. I am also a proponent of early dating for the Gospels and am not convinced of Markan priority or of the alleged “Q.”

‘As to why the scholarly world has not acknowledged this thesis or work, I am not surprised. Modern critics tend to be very critical and many are dismissive of anything that challenges in any way the status quo of current thinking in the field. No doubt they would argue that there is no evidence of Hebrew originals, apart from a reconstruction of the Greek text. But then again, the same may be said of “Q.” I recommend this book to anyone who has an interest in this area and has some facility with Hebrew and Greek. Without linguistic skills, however, this book may be difficult for many readers. Another writer to be noted, now deceased, is John A.T. Robinson who is cited several times in *Hebrew Christ *and argued from another perspective for an early dating of the Gospels.
Thanks, Dave’ [My underlining]
We are faced with authors fluent in Greek and Aramaic and Hebrew to varying degrees. The Chaldean church claims the whole NT was first written in Aramaic in the Peshitta and then translated into Greek. The same author could have written something in both languages, so you could have two texts, one in Aramaic and one in Greek, from the same person, and possibly this happening with Mark and Matthew. Luke’s Greek is too good and he was a Gentile, as far as I know, so I doubt simultaneous translation occurred with him. The way Luke and Matthew are written suggests to me they are both originally Greek. If you compare Matthew’s use of clauses against John’s heavily Semitic sentence structure you will see what I mean. Here is how a Greek and a Hebrew would write the same thing:
John stepped into the boat and went fishing and he caught some fish and the fish were big and they strained the net.
After having stepped into the boat, John went to fish and caught some fish, so large so as to strain the net.
The Septuagint - translation of the Hebrew into Greek - follows Hebrew word order. If Matthew had a Hebrew origin, it was totally recast in Greek and was not simply a translation.
 
From 1907 to 1933 the Pontifical Biblical Commission stated emphatically:
‘Scholars are not free to advocate the two-source theory whereby Matthew and Luke are dependant on Mark and the “Sayings of the Lord” (“Q”).’
The New Biblical Theorists, Msgr George A Kelly, Servant Books, 1983, p 34].

Pope St. Pius X made the rulings of the Commission a part of the Magisterium, the supreme teaching authority of the Church. No one has any authority to challenge the Magisterium on teaching re faith and morals.

Even Joseph Fitzmyer admits in his book *To Advance The Gospel *(Crossroads, 1981, p 4) that the two-source theory remains unprovable.
Abu, isn’t it funny that all your magisterial citations are from the early 20th century?

By your hypothesis, the Magisterium just basically snoozed on the job for the past 50 years, while heresy was promoted.

Isn’t it in fact far more likely that the earlier statements you love to quote were fallible and tentative ones and that the development of the Church’s understanding of Scripture has led it to a place where these statements are no longer entirely relevant?

I’m sure you find this an unacceptable suggestion, but the alternative is a narrative of a Magisterium that sleeps on the job.

Jimmy Akin agrees that the earlier condemnations are not binding:
Although the Magisterium of the Church initially prohibited Catholic scholars from advocating this view, this was later changed, and, as Pope Benedict XVI noted, when he was still Cardinal Ratzinger and the head of the Pontifical Biblical Commission, the two-source theory is “accepted today by almost everyone”
I know, of course, that he’s not an authority of great weight, but he’s a spokesman for Catholic Answers, which perhaps even you will agree is not known for its liberalism:p

Edwin
 
I have been following along here (and although I don’t have much to add at this point), I just wanted to encourage the conversation — it is interesting.
 
Even more of a headache is the idea that the Gospels floated around as stories (pericopes) before they were assembled into their current forms by the various authors, getting translated and retranslated in their publication, a process that ended very early but was still there. That would account for the end of Mark and the story of the woman getting stoned.
 
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