The Spiral Argument Argument

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Well, this thread has lost its steam, and I’ve lost interest in continuing the debate. I’ve been reading a bunch of books I ordered by Craig Blomberg, Gary Habermas, Mike Licona, William Lane Craig and J. Warner Wallace. If you want to read just one, go with Cold Case Christianity by Wallace as a good starting point.

In conclusion, I want to say that Catholics do NOT need the Spiral Argument. In my opinion, it is a tool that we can use to help our non-Catholic brothers and sisters to understand why we can be confident that the Bible is inspired. But, of course, Catholics place their confidence in the Church built by Jesus. Fr. Adrian Fortescue made the argument this way over a century ago:

"The [Catholic] position is this: there are two kinds of proofs for any dogma. The main proof, the most efficient in any way, the proof that is the real motive for every Catholic, is simply that this dogma is taught now by the Church of Christ, that Christ has given to his Church his own authority, so that we can trust the Church as we trust Christ himself. “Who heareth you, heareth me” (Luke 10:16). The argument is the same for every dogma (that is why the Catholic position is essentially simple, in spite of apparent complexity); it can be understood by the most ignorant, as the religion of Christ must be (it is impossible for every child and peasant to make up his own Christianity for himself by his interpretation of Scripture or the Fathers…). This position admits no vagaries of private judgment for each dogma. No variety of interpretation is possible as to what the Catholic Church of today teaches, or, if such misunderstanding should occur, the Church is there to declare her mind. Even the most fundamental dogmas rest ultimately on the teaching of the Catholic Church today, even, for instance, that of the Holy Trinity. All we suppose, before we come to the Church, is that our Lord Jesus Christ was a man sent by God and whom we must follow if we wish to serve God in the proper way; that he founded one visible Church, to which his followers should belong; that this Church is, as a matter of historic fact, the communion of Rome (not, however, supposing anything about the papacy, but supposing only visible unity and historic continuity). This much must be presupposed and therefore does not rest on the authority of the Church. All else does.

“But there is another kind of argument for each dogma, taking each separately and proving that this was taught by Christ and has been believed from the beginning. This line of argument is neither so convincing nor so safe. It does now involve our private judgment as to whether the ancient texts do, or do not, really prove what we claim. It requires knowledge of the texts, of dead languages; to be efficient it requires considerable scholarship. It is impossible that our Lord should give us a religion requiring all this before you know what it is. This direct proof of each dogma can be only confirmation of the general argument for all, taken from the present teaching of the Church. But it is a most valuable confirmation, which we are always ready to offer, as long as it is understood that it is not the main reason of our belief. I am quite sure that Matthew 16:18 and the Church Fathers Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Chrysostom and Augustine all say what I believe about the Bishop of Rome. But I do not base my faith on what they say; I do not really care a jot whether convenire ad means “agree with” or “to go”. I base my faith on what the Catholic Church of today says. That alone is quite enough for all of us; in this we have an argument perfectly clear, convincing, final, the same for the student of patrology as for a peasant who can neither read nor write” (Adrian Fortescue, The Early Papacy to the Synod of Chalcedon in 451, [San Francisco, Ignatius Press, 2008], 26-27).
Amen!

I would add that most of us, believer or nonbeliever, live our lives based on the first paradigm.

That is, while most of us will firmly profess, “X is the capital of Country Y”, we only do this because we trust Mrs. Caltigarone, our 4th grade teacher. None of us ever bothers to actually fly to X to observe the legislative process to confirm that X is indeed the capital.

We simply believe Mrs. Caltigarone.
 
Since you’re reading a lot, I’ll echo Contarini in encouraging you to read Bauckham. He’s a very well respected conservative scholar who will bolster your arguments regarding the reliability of the Gospels while avoiding some of the historiographical pitfalls into which lay apologists occasionally tumble! I learned lots from him.
 
Since you’re reading a lot, I’ll echo Contarini in encouraging you to read Bauckham. He’s a very well respected conservative scholar who will bolster your arguments regarding the reliability of the Gospels while avoiding some of the historiographical pitfalls into which lay apologists occasionally tumble! I learned lots from him.
Interestingly, his name has come up in some of what I’m reading (along with that of NT Wright), so I will take a look at both of them as I make my way through this material.
 
Interestingly, his name has come up in some of what I’m reading (along with that of NT Wright), so I will take a look at both of them as I make my way through this material.
And I want to read Blomberg and Licona now.

So this conversation has led to some constructive result after all:p

Edwin
 
Here is a question I have for everyone here. Is the reliability of the New Testament, the case for the Resurrection, and the credibility of the Church sufficient to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that Christianity is the true religion?

Or does one also need to rigorously study the teachings and apologetics of all other religions? For example, do I need to study the apologetics for the Talmud, the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Sutras, etc., with equal depth as I do for the Bible in order to have an objective reason for why I choose Christianity? (I’m a slow reader, so it would be very arduous for me to take the time to read all those books.)
 
Here is a question I have for everyone here. Is the reliability of the New Testament, the case for the Resurrection, and the credibility of the Church sufficient to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that Christianity is the true religion?

Or does one also need to rigorously study the teachings and apologetics of all other religions? For example, do I need to study the apologetics for the Talmud, the Quran, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Sutras, etc., with equal depth as I do for the Bible in order to have an objective reason for why I choose Christianity? (I’m a slow reader, so it would be very arduous for me to take the time to read all those books.)
Some religions are based upon the sayings of a Guru.

Christianity is based upon an event…the resurrection.

If the resurrection really happened, and if it is sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, then you can skip all the others.
 
Some religions are based upon the sayings of a Guru.

Christianity is based upon an event…the resurrection.

If the resurrection really happened, and if it is sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, then you can skip all the others.
That makes no sense at all.

Hindus, for instance, have no problem accounting for the resurrection. A Hindu once said to me, “Sure, Jesus rose from the dead–lots of people have risen from the dead.” To Hindus, the resurrection is evidence that Jesus was a great saint, maybe an avatar.

The resurrection needs an interpretive context.

Edwin
 
That makes no sense at all.

Hindus, for instance, have no problem accounting for the resurrection. A Hindu once said to me, “Sure, Jesus rose from the dead–lots of people have risen from the dead.” To Hindus, the resurrection is evidence that Jesus was a great saint, maybe an avatar.

The resurrection needs an interpretive context.

Edwin
Oh.

In that case, icamhif should check out both Christianity and Hinduism.
 
Randy Carson #346
Christianity is based upon an event…the resurrection.
If the resurrection really happened, and if it is sufficient evidence that Jesus is God, then you can skip all the others.
Agree totally.
Contarini #346
That makes no sense at all.
What makes no sense at all is to ignore to reality of the miracles and resurrection of Jesus.
A Hindu once said to me, “Sure, Jesus rose from the dead–lots of people have risen from the dead.” To Hindus, the resurrection is evidence that Jesus was a great saint, maybe an avatar.
Fancy paying any attention from a Hindu to such a mere fancy that “lots of people have risen from the dead”.

Quadratus, an early apologist writing about 123 A.D., tells us that in his day there were still persons around who had been cured or raised from the dead by Jesus – prime witnesses.

The Gospel writers had the opportunity to get the facts. And we know that they would be careful and honest, for their own eternity depended on facts, not on fancy. As St. Paul told the Corinthians, “If Christ is not risen, your faith is vain” (1, 15:17). Free From All Error, Fr William G Most, Prow Books, 1985, p 12].

**Answer by Fr. John Echert (EWTN) on 12-09-2004: **
“The sickness and death found among the Christians at Corinth who unworthily approached the Holy Eucharist was a sign to the Church that this was no mere symbol but a divine Reality of Christ in His Body and Blood, as taught by Jesus Himself.”

Apart from the New Testament’s recorded miracles of Jesus Himself, and those of His appointed Chief Vicar St Peter, we have the doctor-attested miracle cures at Lourdes, the attested miracle of the Sun at Fatima and other attested cases of miracles such as the recurring liquefaction – The liquefaction (becoming liquid) of the blood of St Januarius (Gennaro) is an extraordinary miracle of the Church that has been occurring up to 18 times each year for the past 600 years.
miraclesofthechurch.com/2010/10/blood-miracle-of-st-januarius-gennaro.html

The miracle of Lanciano took place in the little Church of St. Legontian and St. Domitian, as a divine response to a Basilian monk’s doubt about Jesus’ Real Presence in the Eucharist. It is the first and greatest Eucharistic Miracle of the Catholic Church. This Eucharistic miracle happened in the year 700 A.D.
infallible-catholic.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/eucharistic-miracle-of-lanciano-italy.html
catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/the-miracle-of-lanciano.html?hc_location=ufi
 
“Throughout my professional career, a variety of people have jumped to the conclusion that I hold the views that I do because I was raised to believe in a conservative or evangelical form of Christianity. I was not. I was brought up in a mainstream Protestant church and educated at a college with a very liberal department of religion that was associated with that denomination. I came to the scholarly positions that I hold through academic investigation and inquiry, not because my upbringing or education predisposed me to believe as I do. Others assume that I *continue * [emphasis original] to hold the views that I do because I teach at a seminary that endorses a very high view of Scripture. If I changed my perspectives noticeably, I would need to resign and look for a different teaching position; certain critics assume that I would be unwilling to do this. Again, the assumption errs. I have had an adequate number of diverse job offers over the years so that I would not hesitate to seek employment elsewhere rather than annually sign a doctrinal state I could not affirm with integrity, if I ever changed my mind on the topic of this book.”

Craig L. Blomberg, PhD
The Historical Reliability of the Gospels (2nd ed.)
pp. 22-23
 
Above all, theology and history are not opposites. A historian can hold strong views about the significance of certain events and still write reliable history. In fact, partisan proponents of a given point of view are sometimes even more accurate than detached observers; consider, for example, the first impassioned accounts from Jewish sources of the Nazi holocaust that turned out to be more accurate than the reports of “objective” news media. Indeed, sometimes, the very nature of an ideological agenda requires more historical accuracy rather than less. Jews, understandably committed to preventing atrocities against their people, have more reason to chronicle carefully past attempts at genocide. Christians, believing God to have acted uniquely in the person and ministry of Jesus for the salvation of the world, had to depict at least the main contours of Jesus’ life, death and resurrection accurately in order to prove persuasive. And the more unique the events witnessed, the more crucial reliable testimony becomes.

Craig L. Blomberg, PhD
**The Historical Reliability of the Gospels **(2nd ed.)
pp. 73-74
 
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