The spread of Islam in Indonesia (1200 to 1600)

[paarsurrey]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4496256&postcount=129
Some Respectful Questions for Muslims

Originally Posted by **Reuben J **
Otherwise how do you think Islam was spread?

Hi

It is a good question. Kindly access the link: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_spr…_(1200_to_1600

The answer is just before your eyes; not from any Muslim sources as you won’t like that as that do not match with the picture you have in your mind; well sorry for that.

The article is long; I only give here some initial passages. One may read the whole article if one likes, no compulsion.

The spread of Islam in Indonesia (1200 to 1600)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Islam is thought to have first been adopted by peoples of the Indonesian archipelago sometime during the eleventh century, although Muslims had visited the archipelago early in the Muslim era. By the end of the 16th century, Islam, through assimilation, had supplanted Hinduism and Buddhism as the dominant religion of Java and Sumatra. At this time, only Bali retained a Hindu majority and the eastern islands remained largely animist but would adopt Islam and Christianity in seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

The spread of Islam was driven by increasing trade links outside of the archipelago; in general, traders and the royalty of major kingdoms were the first to adopt the new religion. Dominant kingdoms included Mataram in Central Java, and the sultanates of Ternate and Tidore in the Maluku Islands to the east. By the end of the thirteenth century, Islam had been established in North Sumatra; by the fourteenth in northeast Malaya, Brunei, the southern Philippines and among some courtiers of East Java; and the fifteenth in Malacca and other areas of the Malay Peninsula. Although it is known that the spread of Islam began in the west of the archipelago, the fragmentary evidence does not suggest a rolling wave of conversion through adjacent areas; rather, it suggests the process was complicated and slow.

Unquote

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[swariffin]

Some muslims believed that a Chinese Admiral called Admiral Cheng Ho, a Muslim from mainland China also took part in Islam development in central Java, from the city of Semarang. There was a temple called Sam Po Kong, believed to be established by Admiral Cheng Ho, venerated both by the Buddhist and the Muslims.

 

[Muslim_Woman]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Salaam/ Peace

Was Islam Spread by the Sword?

By Dr. Zakir Naik

Fourteen million Arabs are Coptic Christians

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled, but overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword, there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

1. More than 80% non-Muslims in India

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. These Muslim rulers did not use any force in order to convert people to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India consists of non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are testimony today that Islam was not spread by the sword, nor was any force used for conversion to Islam.

1. Indonesia and Malaysia

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

islamicvoice.com/august.99/zakir.htm

 

[swariffin]

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

The Sultan of Banten (a Hindu kingdom in west Java) was defeated by the Muslim’s Wali (bringer of Islam) in a war. After they escaped from their land, the decendent of that Sultan lived remotely and isolatedly until now called as the Badui people. Their village is in Subang district, and can only be reached on foot after 8 hours walking

 

[dzheremi]

I do not like this way of arguing. India is 80% non-Muslim, true, but it is also a really, really bad example to use right now if your point is that it is an example of Islamic tolerance, due to the horrific terrorist events at the hands of Muslims there that are going on right now. These are a continuation of past conflict, as is the case in many parts of the world with inter-religious and inter-cultural conflict.

Indonesia is a better case, but so what? Every place where Islam now predominates once had non-Muslim majorities, some quite recently (and 1200-1600 is rather recent, historically speaking). It’s a natural consequence of Islam being the last of the Abrahamic religions, developed entirely within the time frame of recorded history, and doesn’t really speak as to the peaceful or warlike nature of Islam at all. Is Christianity violent because of the Crusades, or non-violent because of the peaceful conversion of the Axumite king in Ethiopia? I don’t think we can draw such big conculsions from isolated places or people in history. We have to look at the overall doctrine and the behavior that comes from following it. Under certain conditions, Islam is peaceful. Under certain conditions, Islam is violent and warlike. If you wish to disown the violence in Islam, then please also return to the native non-Muslims the lands that were taken from them by violent conquest. We don’t need to ask which armies went into those regions, destroyed the native Christianity, Judaism, and other beliefs in those areas (for instance: you don’t see any Christianity in North Africa now, even though it was the seedbed of the early Church for many years), and over time made them Muslim lands. They are a matter of historical record.

 

[Reuben_J]

Indonesia is a better case, but so what?

Christians are suffering right now in Indonesia in the hands of majority Muslims.

It is even worse in Malaysia. Muslims are simple majority but their government governs with great discrimination against the non-Muslims.

But when they are the minority, they also cause trouble to the countries they live in. In Thailand and the Philippines many non-Muslims are victims of their vicious cruelty.

When they are the majority, minority non-Muslims are simply cowed to submission if not they are killed mercilessly. Pakistan, Iraq, Sudan and Iran are such countries. This is not counting countries like Saudi Arabia where Phillipino maids are raped or murdered randomly by their rich Muslim employers.

Thus non-Muslim population in an Islamic country becomes less and less over the years. It is only their persevering attitude that keeps them in existence today.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Please note.

The original question being answere is :

Originally Posted by Reuben J
Otherwise how do you think Islam was spread?

From the articles/post one can form one’s own opinion peacefully, without anger and without compulsion.

Thanks

 

[Dempsey1919]

I do not like this way of arguing. India is 80% non-Muslim, true, but it is also a really, really bad example to use right now if your point is that it is an example of Islamic tolerance, due to the horrific terrorist events at the hands of Muslims there that are going on right now.

I would find these arguments very convincing were it not for the actions of Muslims around the world. The Muslims themselves are entirely responsible for the way the world perceives Islam. The world sees Islam as an evil and oppressive religion solely because of the actions of Islamic militants and extremists.

As you have said, the argument that India is 80% non-muslim does not prove that Islam is a tolerant religion, especially in light of the recent attrocities carried out by radical Muslims on that continent. * However, in all fairness, it does prove that Islam once was a peaceful religion, but sadly, things have changed.* Modern Islam is suffers because of a minority of radical extremists. The extremists bring shame to Islam and are entirely to blame for the negative attitude that many have towards Islam.

 

[dzheremi]

Reuben J: I meant that Indonesia is a better historical example than India. Of course life is hard for Indonesian Christians as it is for all Christians of Islamic and Muslim-majority countries.

 

[Reuben_J]

I would find these arguments very convincing were it not for the actions of Muslims around the world. The Muslims themselves are entirely responsible for the way the world perceives Islam. The world sees Islam as an evil and oppressive religion solely because of the actions of Islamic militants and extremists.

As you have said, the argument that India is 80% non-muslim does not prove that Islam is a tolerant religion, especially in light of the recent attrocities carried out by radical Muslims on that continent. * However, in all fairness, it does prove that Islam once was a peaceful religion, but sadly, things have changed. Modern Islam is suffers because of a minority of radical extremists. The extremists bring shame to Islam and are entirely to blame for the negative attitude that many have towards Islam. *

Great and balanced post.

I’ll be more blunt. Sadly the so-called radical extremists are good Muslims. Yes, good Muslims. Muslim like Ben Laden who model himself after Mohammad. In fact in his biography, he imitates everything that Mohammad did. So when he murders innocent women and children, it is right form Mohammad’s manual.

There are no Muslims here who are able to say that Ben Laden is a bad Muslim because to do so they have to label the same to Mohammad, which they will never do of course.

 

[Reuben_J]

Reuben J: I meant that Indonesia is a better historical example than India. Of course life is hard for Indonesian Christians as it is for all Christians of Islamic and Muslim-majority countries.

Ok noted. I read your post and thought it was fabulous. I digress a little and took the liberty to point out the situation of non-Muslims in Indonesia.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi

Sorry, the original question which is being discussed is:

Originally Posted by Reuben J
Otherwise how do you think Islam was spread?

So, please don’t mix it up. The spread of Islam from previous centuries is being discussed. The current World Political scenario is not being discussed. An individual could be bad, a group of people may be bad; that is no fault of his ancestors. So why blame the root sources i.e., Muhammad/Quran/Islam when they are/were not at fault?

Peace, reason, restraint,equity . . . . . .

Thanks

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

Sorry, the original question which is being discussed is:

So, please don’t mix it up. The spread of Islam from previous centuries is being discussed. The current World Political scenario is not being discussed. An individual could be bad, a group of people may be bad; that is no fault of his ancestors. So why blame the root sources i.e., Muhammad/Quran/Islam when they are/were not at fault?

Peace, reason, restraint,equity . . . . . .

Thanks

You are a very tricky fellow.

This subject came about because Muslim Woman in the other thread said Muslims fight because of the oppression they suffer from non-Muslims.

I can understand if these are America and the West because we are rich and powerful nations right now. But Muslims do not fight these nations only but in other nations like Indonesia, Thailand, Sudan, Iraq, and Pakistan. Do the non-Muslims oppress them in these nations? And if not, why are they fighting and killing the non-Muslims there.

I suggest to you the reason why - because these were in your Quran and Mohammad did them. It was always the case. Islam was spread by the sword.

In other countries where the sword is not obviously used, it was through the discriminating Islamic rulers (Sultans) and the way they governed which eventually led the non-Muslims to capitulate and convert to Islam.

So get it?

 

[cathopologist]

1. More than 80% non-Muslims in India

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. These Muslim rulers did not use any force in order to convert people to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India consists of non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are testimony today that Islam was not spread by the sword, nor was any force used for conversion to Islam.

If Islam was tolerant towards Hindus, why then was the Great Partition hastened? It was the other way round. The Hindus tolerated the Moghuls because Indians are a hospitable people, until they realized how tyrannical they really were. Akbar ‘The Great’ - was no different than Vlad the Impaler. He would decapitate the heads of his subjects and raise them on a tower so he could marvel at his power. He was also well known for his excessive drinking, opium smoking and womanizing ways. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. I am appalled at how Muslim revisionists re-tell history as if nothing of that sort ever happened.

1. Indonesia and Malaysia

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

You think the Malaysian Sultans never oppressed non-Muslims? And you believe Muslims never humiliate Balinese Hindus? Have you ever been to this part of the world to confirm what these Muslim revisionists write about?

 

[PerryJ]

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

Salaam/ Peace

Was Islam Spread by the Sword?

By Dr. Zakir Naik

Fourteen million Arabs are Coptic Christians

Muslims were the lords of Arabia for 1400 years. For a few years the British ruled, and for a few years the French ruled, but overall, the Muslims ruled Arabia for 1400 years. Yet today, there are 14 million Arabs who are Coptic Christians i.e. Christians since generations. If the Muslims had used the sword, there would not have been a single Arab who would have remained a Christian.

1. More than 80% non-Muslims in India

The Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years. These Muslim rulers did not use any force in order to convert people to Islam. Today more than 80% of the population of India consists of non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Indians are testimony today that Islam was not spread by the sword, nor was any force used for conversion to Islam.

1. Indonesia and Malaysia

Indonesia is a country that has the maximum number of Muslims in the world. The majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. May one ask, “Which Muslim army went to Indonesia and Malaysia?”

islamicvoice.com/august.99/zakir.htm

Yes, the Muslim faith was spread by conquest. First Indonesia was not peacefully changed from other religions.

In East Timor Muslims killed over 200,000 Christians. Forced conversions and exterminated whole towns. One can read the details in the book Islam and Dhimmitude by Bat Ye or, Miriam Kochram and David Littman.

Even in areas when genocide was not the rule; which, wasn’t often non-muslims had to live by different laws. Even to this day we have to live by different rules. In the past laws such as below existed in alsmot all Muslims countries.

Although the laws differed in different places, the following are examples of laws that Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:
Christians and Jews could not bear arms – Muslims could;
Christians and Jews could not ride horses – Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to get permission to build – Muslims did not;
Christians and Jews are not allowed to build Churches
Christians and Jews were not allowed to bring in Bibles - this is alos true today in many Muslim countries
Christians and Jews had to pay taxes for not being Muslim
Christians could not proselytize – Muslims could;
Christians and Jews had to bow to their Muslim masters when they paid their taxes
Christians and Jews had to live under the law set forth in the Koran, not under either their own religious or secular law

Even today if a Muslim kills a Christian, when charged, they are given a sentence of time in prison. If the reverse happens the Christian is executed. In Muslim countries Christians as all other religious people are treated as second class citizens.

I just published a short list of conquests by Muslims on another thread. It is historically inaccurate to portray them as peaceful. It is also inaccurate to start history at the time of the Crusades. Muslims had been conquering and killing Christians for centuries. Muhammed only conquered the Arab Penisula. The rest was Christian. The Crusades were the direct result of Muslim attacks on Christians. I can repost my sources again if you wish.

 

[Verisimilitude]

youtube.com/watch?v=5p0PNdXPPBI