The SSPX (without a flamewar)

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Margaret_Ann said:
Not so. They are in a canonically irregular situation. They are not schismatic.
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One might argue that in 1980 the Individuals in SSPX we’re in an irregular situation. They had lived as laity in a parish and diocese. They had worked in a diocese in the Church itself far more than they had served in SSPX. They were more concerned with the TLM than with the SSPX.

Compare this to individuals in 2018. Most spent little time as laity in any diocese, many grew up on SSPX. They were trained mostly by teachers who never worked in the Church, itself, and most never worked in a diocese in their life.

I wouldn’t call the current clergy scismatics. They never left the Church, because as priests they have always been in something else.
I wouldn’t call the 2018 Lutherans scismatics, either. THIS generation never left. Like the Lutherans the 2018 SSPX is now regularized.
 
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First of all, the laity (outside of the SSPX Third Order) are NOT members of the SSPX. Only clergy belong to the SSPX; the Sisters of the Society of St. Pius X have their own rule as does the Third Order of the SSPX. (For the record, I do NOT belong to SSPX Third Order.)

Re the Lutherans: That’s a totally different situation than the SSPX. I disagree with you on the rest.
 
I suppose you missed the post where a member accused a Priestly Society of the deadly sin of pride.

With no facts at all to back it up.

That is calumny.
 
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My point was that the 1978 SSPX consisted of people far more experienced with the Church itself than with the SSPX. Today it’s totally the opposite.
 
“Margaret_Ann said:
In the early Reformation there were no Identified Lutheran laity. There were some Catholic laity who sometimes visited special chapels, also called Catholic, who still regarded themselves as being under the Pope and RCC bishop. This defacto group really was a Lutheran laity long before there was a recognized Lutheran Church, or official Lutheran clergy and laity. They just didn’t call themselves Lutherans. They kept calling themselves Catholics for a century or so.
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Well, +Lefebvre has already gone before the judgement seat of Christ. At the very least we should pray for him.
 
I used to feel the same way re Archbishop Lefebvre before I learned about the crisis in the Church.

Let me put it this way:

If a man deliberately commits murder, he gets the death penalty.

If it’s second degree, then life in prison.

If it’s third degree (manslaughter), probation or X years in prison.

If it’s self-defense, not guilty.

+Archbishop Lefebvre thought he was doing the right thing for the Church as well as the SSPX.

Btw, did you actually read paragraphs 6 & 7 of his sermon? Y/N
 
Very sadly… I would have to say that in the case of Lefebvre, it would be most like the first… premeditated and deliberate. The case could not be cleaner … he was explicitly forbidden from the actions that he took on many, many occasions. Lefebvre was excommunicated legitimately … which in the life of the Church is pretty darn close to the death penalty.

You are correct… he, like anyone who dies separated from the Church needs prayers in hope of reparation for the grave sin committed.

Yes, I did read the two paragraphs you referenced
 
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Thank you for reading the excerpts of his sermon. As I said, he thought he was doing the right thing.
 
Margaret_Ann said:
Thank you for reading the excerpts of his sermon. As I said, he thought he was doing the right thing.
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He may have made what seemed to him to be prudent decisions at that time. He, and his associates, worked many years in the Church, itself. Bishop Fellay, and most of HIS associates, never worked one day in the Church itself. (I don’t deny they work very hard in SSPX).

The canonical status has not changed over the past 40 tears. Socially, now SSPX has developed its own momentum, its own traditions. Socially it is NOW a separate denomination. The SSPX is really a different organization from what it was 40 years ago.
 
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Margaret_Ann said:
Neither the FSSP or ICKSP would exist today were it not for Archbishop Lefebvre. That is historically accurate.
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It’s always risky to guess What Might Have Happened. That’s because we don’t now know what options were lost, or alternate solutions that might or might not have arisen. We are missing most of the data.

There is a sneaky temptation to use history to justify remaining where we are. Practically every SSPX thread keeps reverting to the 1970s and 80s, rather than the current year, which is where all our decisions, and procrastinating, takes place.
Why so few posts about SSPX in 2018?
 
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Margaret_Ann said:
I used to feel the same way re Archbishop Lefebvre before I learned about the crisis in the Church.

Let me put it this way:

If a man deliberately commits murder, he gets the death penalty.

If it’s second degree, then life in prison.

If it’s third degree (manslaughter), probation or X years in prison.

If it’s self-defense, not guilty.

+Archbishop Lefebvre thought he was doing the right thing for the Church as well as the SSPX.

Btw, did you actually read paragraphs 6 & 7 of his sermon? Y/N
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Who determines the severity of the offense?
Authority.
 
If he is an archbishop defying Church law the pope decides and the pope at the time excommunicated him.
 
commenter said:
Practically every SSPX thread keeps reverting to the 1970s and 80s, rather than the current year, which is where all our decisions, and procrastinating, takes place.
Why so few posts about SSPX in 2018?
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Probably because the story would not be as exciting. In the reality of 2018, the SSPX has long gone it’s own way, and chances of it returning to the fold are next to zero, especially since last week when Fellay was replaced by a hard-liner who is a lot less interested in engaging with Rome. There is little hope for a happy ending, and the conclusion at this point is pretty much forgone, leaving little fodder for entertaining speculation, the life’s blood of internet forums and barroom discussions.
 
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AndrewAxland said:
Probably because the story would not be as exciting. In the reality of 2018, the SSPX has long gone it’s own way, and chances of it returning to the fold are next to zero, especially since last week when Fellay was replaced by a hard-liner who is a lot less interested in engaging with Rome. There is little hope for a happy ending, and the conclusion at this point is pretty much forgone, leaving little fodder for entertaining speculation, the life’s blood of internet forums and barroom discussions.
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At least with prayer, we can always hope, and pray for, a happy ending for the people involved.
 
AndrewAxland said:
Probably because the story would not be as exciting. In the reality of 2018, the SSPX has long gone it’s own way, and chances of it returning to the fold are next to zero, especially since last week when Fellay was replaced by a hard-liner who is a lot less interested in engaging with Rome. There is little hope for a happy ending
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I have actually heard rumours from within the Society that the SSPX is disintegrating fast. They believe that there will shortly be a split and they will formally be reconciled with Rome. However, there are many who will form a new society and remain outside of the Church. This is what I have heard anyway.
 
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