The Star of Bethlehem?

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Tis’ the season…
Matthew 2:1-3:
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”

When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him.
I never noticed the part about “all Jerusalem” being disturbed by this.

So what do you think this event was?

I’ve have some thoughts and have done some research on it but I have to confess this is simply a mystery that eludes me.

The Hebrew Scriptures seem to perhaps point toward this event here…

Numbers 24:17 said:
“I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not near. A star will come out of Jacob; a scepter will rise out of Israel. He will crush the foreheads of Moab, the skulls of all the sons of Sheth.”

And, looking for any possible historical references, the Protevangelium of James says this…
Now, Joseph was about to depart to Judea when there a great commotion in Bethlehem of Judea. For astrologers had come, saying, “Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star in the East and came to worship him.”
Was this merely a miraculous event or an actual physical event interpretted to have a miraculous significance?
 
Is it possible for a planet to be totally covered in aurora so as to appear more brilliant-- like a new star in the evening sky?
 
This is not Catholic teaching, however I think there is something to it.

didyouknow.cd/xmas/Jesus.htm

didyouknow.cd/xmas/Jesus.htm
Those are interesting links Texas Roofer. I will go into them more carefully tomorrow when I have more time.

I have some thoughts too-- although they are not specifically Catholic as far as I can tell. Actually, to my knowledge, I’ve not come across any other sources that have arrived as some of the odd conclusions that i think might explain some things in the past.

It probably starts by adding something like this…

http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/06_Cosmic/06_Cosmic_pics/060512.Sun.explosion.jpg

…together with something like this…

http://slackmosphere.com/upload/thumbs/9ba588779aaaeff66ce516a6de59759f.jpg

…to get something like this…
Genesis 7:11-13:
In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

On that very day Noah and his sons, Shem, Ham and Japheth, together with his wife and the wives of his three sons, entered the ark.
 
My personal take is that these pagan Magi were into astrology of some kind. They must have noticed some star out of the ordinary while most other non-astrology peoples would have been totally oblivious. God must have created the star to correspond to the Magi’s pagan teaching indicating a king was to come.
 
My personal take is that these pagan Magi were into astrology of some kind. They must have noticed some star out of the ordinary while most other non-astrology peoples would have been totally oblivious. God must have created the star to correspond to the Magi’s pagan teaching indicating a king was to come.
I have heard that they came from the area where Daniel had been captive. Note that Daniel worked with the astrologers of the Babalonian court; many of the Old Testament prophecies may have been absorbed by the Chaldean seers . [See Daniel 2:2]
 
"Catholic Dude:
My personal take is that these pagan Magi were into astrology of some kind. They must have noticed some star out of the ordinary while most other non-astrology peoples would have been totally oblivious. God must have created the star to correspond to the Magi’s pagan teaching indicating a king was to come.
I have heard that they came from the area where Daniel had been captive. Note that Daniel worked with the astrologers of the Babalonian court; many of the Old Testament prophecies may have been absorbed by the Chaldean seers . [See Daniel 2:2]
I kind of agree with both of you here. But I am still puzzled by this-- since the Lord seems to have forbidden false forms of prophesy, and astrology seems to have part of those forbidden practices.

I guess I just don’t understand this part unless God had, as Joe Kelly suggests, perhaps revealed a true sign that would occur in the stars long ago, something which was known to the ancient world but had fallen away into the pagan traditions to no longer be remembered by the Israelites themselves.

I guess I’m suggesting that, much like the coming of Christ, something else which the pagans themselves seemed to be expecting even better than the most of the Israelites did, for some odd reason the pagans recognized “the sign” in the heavens better than the Israelites did.

This seems to lend itself partially to the idea of lost knowledge that the Israelites formerly held sacred, something similar to that which some of the early fathers suggested as “The Theft of the Greeks”.

Justin Martyr, Tatian, Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius of Caesarea all seemed to believe that whatever was good or noble in the writings of pagan philosophers was there because it had been plagiarised from Moses. This was a popular view of the some of the early fathers.
 
I kind of agree with both of you here. But I am still puzzled by this-- since the Lord seems to have forbidden false forms of prophesy, and astrology seems to have part of those forbidden practices.
The Magi most likely were Zoroastrians. Zarathustra, who lived at the latest around 1500 BCE, at the earliest around 6000 BCE, had prophesied that Saoshyants would occur over history, revealing God’s message to humankind. And, apparently, the Magi had concluded that certain astrological signs indicate the appearance of the next Saoshyant. At the time of the birth of Jesus, certain planets were in certain configurations associated with the appearance of the next Saoshyant. There is no need to speculate on something that was completely out of the ordinary, since astrology is based on the the interpretation of the completely ordinary movements of the planets. The Magi simply knew how to interpret such movements, and went to Judea.

This is not to say that miraculous events did not occur, in association with the birth of Jesus.

Regarding the Christian prohibition against astrology, it’s similar to the Christian denial of reincarnation. Whether astrology is true or not, astrology can divert people from what they should be focusing on: God, rather than the planets. The Magi, and all real astrologers, always can keep the focus on God, and can use astrology wisely; but it would be dis-astr-ous (no pun intended) if the Church encouraged that everyone should practice astrology.
 
Tis’ the season…

I never noticed the part about “all Jerusalem” being disturbed by this.

So what do you think this event was?

I’ve have some thoughts and have done some research on it but I have to confess this is simply a mystery that eludes me.

The Hebrew Scriptures seem to perhaps point toward this event here…

And, looking for any possible historical references, the Protevangelium of James says this…

Was this merely a miraculous event or an actual physical event interpretted to have a miraculous significance?
This is also from the Protoevangelium of James

And I Joseph was walking, and was not walking; and I looked up into the sky, and saw the sky astonished; and I looked up to the pole of the heavens, and saw it standing, and the birds of the air keeping still. And I looked down upon the earth, and saw a trough lying, and work-people reclining: and their hands were in the trough. And those that were eating did not eat, and those that were rising did not carry it up, and those that were conveying anything to their mouths did not convey it; but the faces of all were looking upwards. And I saw the sheep walking, and the sheep stood still; and the shepherd raised his hand to strike them, and his hand remained up. And I looked upon the current of the river, and I saw the mouths of the kids resting on the water and not drinking, and all things in a moment were driven from their course.

Whatever it was seemed to affect everybody. It doesn’t look like it needed an astrologer to see that something special was happening. It’s almost like time stopped…
 
I kind of agree with both of you here. But I am still puzzled by this-- since the Lord seems to have forbidden false forms of prophesy, and astrology seems to have part of those forbidden practices…
It was there for the pagans, Mary and Joseph had already been told, the shepards ( probably Jew, definitely poor) were told for the common man. John the Baptist was placed with a 6 month lead for the religious, remember the prophet Isaiah had already announced the line and the virgin birth. The Pharoses were tested and that did not go well, of course had the Pharoses been able to accept Jesus we probably would not have had Jesus at that time.
 
The Magi most likely were Zoroastrians. Zarathustra, who lived at the latest around 1500 BCE, at the earliest around 6000 BCE, had prophesied that Saoshyants would occur over history, revealing God’s message to humankind. And, apparently, the Magi had concluded that certain astrological signs indicate the appearance of the next Saoshyant.
Some would place the dates to 1000 to 600 BC.
At the time of the birth of Jesus, certain planets were in certain configurations associated with the appearance of the next Saoshyant.
I have read a few different commentaries of how the plants were aligned in certain fashions that astrologers would probably associated with some great sign. I think they are probably right as far as I can tell. Even still, the fact that God would use this as an indication does seem odd.
There is no need to speculate on something that was completely out of the ordinary, since astrology is based on the the interpretation of the completely ordinary movements of the planets. The Magi simply knew how to interpret such movements, and went to Judea.
But being able to accurately interpret such movements as meaning that a great kind or Messiah had appeared is something that was completely out of the ordinary. There have been many of these kinds of conjunctions throughout history with no jarring world events being tied to them-- so why was this particular set of conjunctions perceived any differently? And why was this particular set of conjunctions interpretted in such a way as to indicate to the pagans that the messiah had come?
This is not to say that miraculous events did not occur, in association with the birth of Jesus.
I would say that being able to p(name removed by moderator)oint this particular set of conjunctions from hundreds of others throughout world history as correctly meaning that the Great King has been born is extraordinary if not miraculous in an of itself.
Regarding the Christian prohibition against astrology, it’s similar to the Christian denial of reincarnation.
Reincarnation is not merely denied by Christianity. It simply does not exist at all-- which is why Catholicism does not teach this within the deposit of faith.
Whether astrology is true or not, astrology can divert people from what they should be focusing on: God, rather than the planets. The Magi, and all real astrologers, always can keep the focus on God, and can use astrology wisely; but it would be dis-astr-ous (no pun intended) if the Church encouraged that everyone should practice astrology.
What would be the difference between a real astrologer and a fake astrologer?

I realize that one could simply answer that the Magi were real astrologers as opposed to fake astrologers-- but that doesn’t really show any difference.
 
. . .

I never noticed the part about “all Jerusalem” being disturbed by this.
. . .
Note that it says
“Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him.”
When King Herod heard this he was disturbed, and all Jerusalem with him
I don’t think they were disturbed by seeing the star but because Herod remembered the prophecy of Balaam [Numbers 24:17-10]
I see him, but not now; I behold him, but not nigh: a star shall come forth out of Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel; it shall crush the forehead* of Moab, and break down all the sons of Sheth. 18 Edom shall be dispossessed, Seir also, his enemies, shall be dispossessed, while Israel does valiantly.
Note that Herod claimed to be King of Israel, but was in reality an Edomite. The prophecy fortells his downfall - and when he was upset; all Jerusalem was upset.
 
The commenets of Texas Roofer and Joe Kelly have been very interesting. When I was in college and taking some astronomy courses it was mentioned that the star could have been a supernova that was bright enough to be seen during the day ( or night for that matter). This was recorded by the Chinese because they were interested in recording celestial events more than other civilizations at the time. The supernova is only a guess because it could have been the alignment of the planets as has already been discussed. To me the most important thing is that the Old Testament stories had been spread as far as the Magi (where ever they were) for them to be heard. It would seem hard for them to come from the far east, but Babylonian territory would seem much easier to believe. Whatever the case, three professional individuals who practiced the black arts now believed in the Christ.
mdcpensive1
 
Some would place the dates to 1000 to 600 BC.
Those dates would be way much too late. The language of the Avesta is comparable to that of the Vedas, which themselves go back at least to 2000 BCE.
But being able to accurately interpret such movements as meaning that a great kind or Messiah had appeared is something that was completely out of the ordinary. There have been many of these kinds of conjunctions throughout history with no jarring world events being tied to them
Check out Richard Tarnas’ Cosmos and Psyche. It’s not just conjunctions; it’s a lot more.
And why was this particular set of conjunctions interpretted in such a way as to indicate to the pagans that the messiah had come?
Well, first you would have to know which conjunctions you’re actually referring to. It’s a bit unclear exactly when Jesus was born, but if you have a date in mind, I can run the astrological calculation and see what I come up with.
I would say that being able to p(name removed by moderator)oint this particular set of conjunctions from hundreds of others throughout world history as correctly meaning that the Great King has been born is extraordinary if not miraculous in an of itself.
Astrological symbols have meanings, and if you know the meanings, you can know what the configurations point to.
Reincarnation is not merely denied by Christianity. It simply does not exist at all-- which is why Catholicism does not teach this within the deposit of faith.
I’ll put it this way: there are many Christians who see no inconsistency with Christianity and reincarnation.
What would be the difference between a real astrologer and a fake astrologer?
The difference would be comparable to the difference between a real prophet and a fake prophet.
I realize that one could simply answer that the Magi were real astrologers as opposed to fake astrologers-- but that doesn’t really show any difference.
Well, the Magi’s use of astrology certainly had concrete results, so I’d say they were pretty real.
 
Those dates would be way much too late. The language of the Avesta is comparable to that of the Vedas, which themselves go back at least to 2000 BCE.
I have to confess that I have not studied the Avesta in depth, although I had briefly investigated it years ago when I was first investigating Christianity.
Check out Richard Tarnas’ Cosmos and Psyche. It’s not just conjunctions; it’s a lot more.
I guess I’ll have to confess in advance that I didn’t actually look at the link. I mean no offence, but I do not believe the harmonies of the astrological bodies (if that is what the article discusses) affect us in this way. Twin studies alone seem to refute this idea.
Well, first you would have to know which conjunctions you’re actually referring to. It’s a bit unclear exactly when Jesus was born, but if you have a date in mind, I can run the astrological calculation and see what I come up with.
There’s a few that occured around the time Jesus is reported to have been born. This one has caught my attention for the sake of this inquiry.

Consequently, some speculate that Jesus’ birthdate was not specifically mentioned (which is a pretty **big detail **to leave out considering the nature of the Star of Bethlehem) precisely because some would attatch some astrological significance to his birth.
Astrological symbols have meanings, and if you know the meanings, you can know what the configurations point to.
There’s seems to be no doubt that some significance can be gleaned. For example, in the article I linked above, it appears that Jupiter was considered the regal “star” that conferred kingships - a power that was apparently believed to be amplified when Jupiter was in close conjunctions with the Moon.

Me personally, the only real significance that I can give toward astrology (aside from any potential prophecy) is the idea that it began as a form of ancient meteorology which was then overlayed with mystical meanings that the original meteorologists may have never intended to begin with. Over time, if true, then perhaps as this ancient meteorological knowledge degraded it may have become distorted to the point that people thought that personalities were determined by the “positions of the stars” instead of people’s personalities becoming “affected by the weather”.

In other words, I think that ancient meteorologists probably noticed certain behaviors in terrestrial weather happened when the planets were aligned a certain way.

This, in my opinion, may be related to how the solar wind is attracted to various planets (such as Jupiter for example). For example, some effects of the solar wind studies suggest that electron density and electric currents in the magnetosphere increase when it is compacted by the shock wave. In addition to this, when the earth passes in-between the Sun and Jupiter, the Earth is often caught in rougher than usual “space weather”. So far we haven’t been able to determine if there is an induced voltage or modulation of the earth’s magnetosphere at times when the other planets are at various angles to the earth, but we are well aware of the fact that there are steams of particles attracted in the direction of Jupiter and Saturn for example.

It’s also suspected that there exists a closeness between the length of the solar cycle and the orbital period of Jupiter for example (the roughly 22 year period seems to fluctuate as Saturn moves alogn with Jupiter during certain time-- recently, when both Saturn and Jupiter were very close to each other, the Sun seemed to have peaked with more active solar flares than usual). Most have not been able to correlate this potential connection yet but I think it exists.

In short, when the earth passes through higher areas of solar wind activity this may result in some kind of change in the terrestrial weather.
 
I’ll put it this way: there are many Christians who see no inconsistency with Christianity and reincarnation.
I understand that and I’m not trying to put your faith down. It’s just that the “many” that you speak of represents a “minority” within the Christian faith.

The Catholic Church, along with many other Christian denominations, simply do not allow a compromise between these two views-- precisely because they feel this view erodes the concept of a personal God “creating the soul” at the person’s conception in the womb and the “judging the soul” at their death.

Both ends seem to be blocked, theologically speaking, from any apparent “transmigration of the soul” as various reincarnation theories and beliefs purport.
The difference would be comparable to the difference between a real prophet and a fake prophet.
But the problem with this is that prophets themselves said this in the past…
Isaiah 47:13:
All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you.
Jeremiah 8:2:
They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like refuse lying on the ground.
This goes back quite a ways in the Hebrew Scriptures too…
Deuteronomy 4:19:
And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.
There’s actually too many passages in the Scriptures which forbid the prophets from engaging in astrology along with many other forms of divination-- precisely because it leads people away from God instead of toward him.

Indeed, the Genesis account seems to specifically borrow from the earlier Babylonian mythologies – drawing ancient truths from them by purging them of the “pagan gods” by saying **“No, the sun, moon and stars are not gods…our God made them and they are merely a part of the nature which our God created…” **-- and specifically warns that consulting these objects of nature can lead people away from God if they do not actually trust God himself.
Well, the Magi’s use of astrology certainly had concrete results, so I’d say they were pretty real.
True. But was it due to their astrological practices?

Or was their success more related to a prophesy that the Lord himself had revealed long ago, something that their collection of ancient writings had captured along the way over the centuries and that they were able to identify when ‘the sign’ had actually come to pass?
 
I guess I’ll have to confess in advance that I didn’t actually look at the link. I mean no offence, but I do not believe the harmonies of the astrological bodies (if that is what the article discusses) affect us in this way. Twin studies alone seem to refute this idea.
You’re assuming that planets exert a cause-and-effect relationship upon human life on earth. That’s not the basis of astrology.
 
But the problem with this is that prophets themselves said this in the past…
In post #8, I mentioned the dangers associated with astrology. Like any art or science, astrology can be (easily) misused. One might begin to think that the planets themselves can solve one’s problems.
True. But was it due to their astrological practices?
Or was their success more related to a prophesy that the Lord himself had revealed long ago, something that their collection of ancient writings had captured along the way over the centuries and that they were able to identify when ‘the sign’ had actually come to pass?
What do you think this prophesy said, if you could speculate?
 
Was this merely a miraculous event or an actual physical event interpretted to have a miraculous significance?
I think it must have been a miraculous event. It’s possible (probably even) that the Magi started out observing something in the sky, but as they got closer to their goal, it became more obviously a miracle.
I’ve been a little cryptic here, but I’m sure you can figure it out. The best argument I’ve heard is along these lines…you can follow the conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn all you want, but it’s not going to lead you anywhere. What I mean is, a star millions of miles away is not going to lead you to a specific house, regardless of how small Bethlehem was.
 
Perhaps it was some meteorological sign-- or some other oddity of nature which was beautiful to behold but otherwise common…such as this firey rainbow of reds, oranges, blues and greens that stretches above the clouds-- covering hundreds of square miles at that.



For example, Jesus said in Matthew 16:2-4…
When evening comes, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red,’ and in the morning, ‘Today it will be stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.’
You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times.
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.
Jesus then left them and went away.
 
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