The Stone

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Faith1960

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Four different Scriptural accounts. Did Jesus roll the stone away or did the angel? If the angel did it, did jesus then leave the tomb or did He walk through the walls of the tomb?

Also, is there anything in Acts that discuss this?

We talked about tthis before but i just found this site and wanted more opinions.
 
Does it matter who rolled the stone? We read that Jesus appeared in the middle of the Apostles, who were hiding behind closed doors. Remember they were still very afraid for their lives at this point.
They were spooked because HE just appeared in the midst of them although HE did ease their fears be telling them that HE was NOT a ghost but flesh and blood.
 
JerryZ said:
Does it matter who rolled the stone? We read that Jesus appeared in the middle of the Apostles, who were hiding behind closed doors. Remember they were still very afraid for their lives at this point.
They were spooked because HE just appeared in the midst of them although HE did ease their fears be telling them that HE was NOT a ghost but flesh and blood.
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I just keep wondering how he emerged from the tomb, and only Matthew says the angel did it .
 
Also, the synoptic Gospels say it was dawn when the women arrived at the tomb but John said it was dark. Why the discrepancy?
 
Faith1960 said:
Also, the synoptic Gospels say it was dawn when the women arrived at the tomb but John said it was dark. Why the discrepancy?
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Dawn is not full daylight, the sun is just poking it’s light above the horizon and if you live in hilly country in the valleys it can be quite dark until the sun is fully up.

I do not see a discrepancy here sorry.

By the way in the Amazon jungle at 12 noon it is almost pitch dark all year round, the light can barely make it to the bottom of the forest.
 
JerryZ said:
Dawn is not full daylight, the sun is just poking it’s light above the horizon and if you live in hilly country in the valleys it can be quite dark until the sun is fully up.

I do not see a discrepancy here sorry.
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Thanks. I thought of that after posting the question.
 
Matthew 28: says

1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.…

I recall in my protestant teachings as a child, it was always the angel that rolled the stone away.
In other scripture, it is more vague “they found the stone was rolled away” etc.
 
Faith1960 said:
I just keep wondering how he emerged from the tomb, and only Matthew says the angel did it .
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Actually, Matthew says the angel rolled away the stone. He does NOT say that is how Jesus emerged.

In fact, the angel says, “He is not here.” Jesus had already risen. There is NO MENTION of Jesus strolling out in the presence of the guards or the women. Only “He is NOT HERE.”

Gertie
 
The gospels are different books, written at different times, by different people, based mostly on oral tradition passed down for years before being written down. There are bound to be discrepancies.
 
Gertabelle said:
Actually, Matthew says the angel rolled away the stone. He does NOT say that is how Jesus emerged.

In fact, the angel says, “He is not here.” Jesus had already risen. There is NO MENTION of Jesus strolling out in the presence of the guards or the women. Only “He is NOT HERE.”

Gertie
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Good point.
 
Gertabelle said:
Actually, Matthew says the angel rolled away the stone. He does NOT say that is how Jesus emerged.

In fact, the angel says, “He is not here.” Jesus had already risen. There is NO MENTION of Jesus strolling out in the presence of the guards or the women. Only “He is NOT HERE.”

Gertie
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Good point.
 
why could not a visible angel have been present with Jesus?

or numerous visible angels?
 
Faith1960 said:
Also, the synoptic Gospels say it was dawn when the women arrived at the tomb but John said it was dark. Why the discrepancy?
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*Matt: *As Sunday morning was dawning, …
*Mark: *Very early on Sunday morning, at sunrise, …
*Luke: *Very early on Sunday morning, …
*John: *Early on Sunday morning, while it was still dark, …
(All from TEV translation)

As far as I can see, four different witnesses are reporting the same event, each in his own words. If all four had used exactly the same wording, that would look a bit suspicious, wouldn’t it? As though they had got into a huddle to agree on exactly what they were going to say in the witness box?

How long would it have taken for them to walk, or even run, from their lodging place in Jerusalem to the tomb outside the city walls? It might have been still dark when they left the house, but dawn breaking by the time they reached the tomb.
 
An angel rolled the stone back so that holy fire from God could consume Jesus’ body as a sacrifice. All sacrifices had to end up being either consumed by people or by fire. For instance the remains of the passover lamb Exodus 12:10 And you shall let none of it remain until the morning, anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. Most sacrifices needed to be burned with holy fire that is fire whose origin is from God not and in Leviticus 10 fire from God consumes Nadab and Abihu’s bodies but not the linen vestments the were wearing. Also, there was a lot more in the tomb than Jesus’ body and the shroud. John tells us Jesus was buried according to Jewish burial practice, so any blood that Jesus shed that could be collected e.g. on His cross, on the dirt from the base of His cross, on the crown of thorns, etc. needed to be buried with the Body. He was also washed, so that needed to be done in the tomb so that any blood washed off remained in the tomb. So When John looked in and saw only the shroud and the sudarium, much was missing, that is consumed by fire. The word resurrection means to rise of go up, in Hebrew holah the word for holocaust (whole burnt offering) means to rise of go up as the smoke from a sacrifice. So Jesus’ resurrection was His body ascending to the Father as the smoke of His sacrifice. I believe that like Adam Jesus instantly got a new body from the dirt (also an altar) that was buried with Him. The holy fire consumed the rocks, the Bloody water, the dirt, and the Body like Elijah’s sacrifice on Mt. Carmel had done.
It was dark and dawn, I believe because there had been a hard rain at the harvest a sign from heaven of God’s displeasure, like the rain when Saul was made king. The rain cleared suddenly for the resurrection as the weather cleared for Jesus when asleep in the boat, a type of His resurrection.
Now I will speculate a bit. An angel could not/would not sit on a stone that had been rolled back, because it would be a high narrow seat. Rather I believe that the stone was used by Jesus to attack Satan as David used another smooth stone to attack Goliath. I think the angel sitting on the stone was keeping Satan bound.
Another interesting note: I believe that Jesus the gardener was considered so because He was using a bucket and shovel to collect the ashes of a sacrifice that last act when cleaning up from a sacrifice, but because He was outside the tomb it was not His ashes, but the ashes of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the virgin waiting at the door with lit lamp for the return of the groom. She was slain by Satan for not allowing Satan to defile Jesus’ body in the tomb and she the new Eve was resurrected immediately following her being offered as a sacrifice as the red heifer sacrifice Numbers 19.
Grace and peace,
Bruce
 
Bruce_Killian said:
An angel rolled the stone back so that holy fire from God could consume Jesus’ body as a sacrifice. All sacrifices had to end up being either consumed by people or by fire. For instance the remains of the passover lamb Exodus 12:10 And you shall let none of it remain until the morning, anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. Most sacrifices needed to be burned with holy fire that is fire whose origin is from God not and in Leviticus 10 fire from God consumes Nadab and Abihu’s bodies but not the linen vestments the were wearing. Also, there was a lot more in the tomb than Jesus’ body and the shroud. John tells us Jesus was buried according to Jewish burial practice, so any blood that Jesus shed that could be collected e.g. on His cross, on the dirt from the base of His cross, on the crown of thorns, etc. needed to be buried with the Body. He was also washed, so that needed to be done in the tomb so that any blood washed off remained in the tomb. So When John looked in and saw only the shroud and the sudarium, much was missing, that is consumed by fire. The word resurrection means to rise of go up, in Hebrew holah the word for holocaust (whole burnt offering) means to rise of go up as the smoke from a sacrifice. So Jesus’ resurrection was His body ascending to the Father as the smoke of His sacrifice. I believe that like Adam Jesus instantly got a new body from the dirt (also an altar) that was buried with Him. The holy fire consumed the rocks, the Bloody water, the dirt, and the Body like Elijah’s sacrifice on Mt. Carmel had done.
It was dark and dawn, I believe because there had been a hard rain at the harvest a sign from heaven of God’s displeasure, like the rain when Saul was made king. The rain cleared suddenly for the resurrection as the weather cleared for Jesus when asleep in the boat, a type of His resurrection.
Now I will speculate a bit. An angel could not/would not sit on a stone that had been rolled back, because it would be a high narrow seat. Rather I believe that the stone was used by Jesus to attack Satan as David used another smooth stone to attack Goliath. I think the angel sitting on the stone was keeping Satan bound.
Another interesting note: I believe that Jesus the gardener was considered so because He was using a bucket and shovel to collect the ashes of a sacrifice that last act when cleaning up from a sacrifice, but because He was outside the tomb it was not His ashes, but the ashes of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the virgin waiting at the door with lit lamp for the return of the groom. She was slain by Satan for not allowing Satan to defile Jesus’ body in the tomb and she the new Eve was resurrected immediately following her being offered as a sacrifice as the red heifer sacrifice Numbers 19.
Grace and peace,
Bruce
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Bruce, this is all interesting. Where did you get all this? Did you think of it yourself or read some of it somewhere. I am interested to learn because I had not heard/thought of this.

-Tim-
 
Convert1 said:
Matthew 28: says

1Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2And behold, **a severe earthquake **had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow.…

.
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To me, this says it all…God sends an earthquake, this made the stone ‘roll’ out of the way…?? Although, I would think they would all have already known if a severe earthquake had happened in the area…even if they were sleeping, a large earthquake would still be felt by everyone for miles.
 
TimothyH said:
Bruce, this is all interesting. Where did you get all this? Did you think of it yourself or read some of it somewhere. I am interested to learn because I had not heard/thought of this.

-Tim-
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Tim,
Our Lord daily gives me insight during study and meditation on the Scriptures and in increasing measure over time. What I shared is just and ice burg tip, I wish I could find a site to get these kinds of insights. I have published some insights by my site www.scripturescholar.com is down because I can’t convince the provider that I am the owner (my credit card number changed).
I was attempting to get a PhD in Biblical studies, but the school closed before I finished and with 3 children and more to come, I could not afford the time or money to continue. But I am quite Biblically literate and in addition I have been meditating on the Scriptures for at least a hour a day for 15 years.
Why have others not received these insights? They don’t study, or they are not in communion with the Church, or they have bought into this nonsense of redactors, and all sorts of Biblical criticism rather than seeing this as God’s word to us, something of immense value where every word carries significant weight. I believe that basically the whole Bible gives insight into the central event of history, the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Grace and peace,
Bruce

BTW, I like your name, I had a 21year old son Timothy who died in a solo auto accident 3 years ago July 4.
 
Faith1960 said:
errancy.com/when-was-the-stone-rolled-away/

Four different Scriptural accounts. Did Jesus roll the stone away or did the angel? If the angel did it, did jesus then leave the tomb or did He walk through the walls of the tomb?

Also, is there anything in Acts that discuss this?

We talked about tthis before but i just found this site and wanted more opinions.
Click to expand...
By the Power and Authority of God, the angel rolled the stone away. You see, the messenger (angel) is not as important as the message (God). So in effect God rolled that stone away by His Power and Authority, by Himself was He raised from the dead. You see, the stone becomes symbolic of death–that no man can master it–but by the stone being rolled away, God proves that He has Power even over death.
 
Bruce_Killian said:
Tim,
Our Lord daily gives me insight during study and meditation on the Scriptures and in increasing measure over time. What I shared is just and ice burg tip, I wish I could find a site to get these kinds of insights. I have published some insights by my site www.scripturescholar.com is down because I can’t convince the provider that I am the owner (my credit card number changed).
I was attempting to get a PhD in Biblical studies, but the school closed before I finished and with 3 children and more to come, I could not afford the time or money to continue. But I am quite Biblically literate and in addition I have been meditating on the Scriptures for at least a hour a day for 15 years.
Why have others not received these insights? They don’t study, or they are not in communion with the Church, or they have bought into this nonsense of redactors, and all sorts of Biblical criticism rather than seeing this as God’s word to us, something of immense value where every word carries significant weight. I believe that basically the whole Bible gives insight into the central event of history, the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Grace and peace,
Bruce

BTW, I like your name, I had a 21year old son Timothy who died in a solo auto accident 3 years ago July 4.
Click to expand...
I too lost a child, Stephanie Marie, who died in 1996 at 4 1/2 years old of Leukemia. Her funeral Mass was on the Feast of the Assumption of Mary.

You have very deep insights and I can tell that you have a great love for God’s word. Scripture converted me and caused me to make a 37 year confession. I think you understand.

Have you read any work by Michael Casey? benedictine-oblates.org/2013/txt/txt-03-en.pdf is a wonderful paper on lectio.

Please send a PM or post when your site is back up.

-Tim-
 
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