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eo_chibears
Guest
What is the Catholic Church’s position on this bible story. Do they feel Jonah was actually swallowed by the giant fish and survived three days and nights in the fish before being vomited out?
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bmullins
Guest
Not necessarily. They see the story as possibly fiction, but with a biblical message and valuable lessons to be learned. Could it be true? Sure. Is it true? not likely. No one is required to believe it is true or not, but it is divinely inspired so the lessons in it ARE true.
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Ceil-1
Guest
I used the story of Jonah in a paper in my ethics class. Jonah’s sense of justice versus God’s beneficence. God’s mercy being heralded by the race of people the Ninevites decimated. I believe all of these stories have at least some reality attached. I never did understand the symbolism of the fish, though. Jesus talks about it, so it’s got to be significant.
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mercytruth
Guest
Haydock’s commentary takes the story literally. It presumes that Jonah survived in the giant sea creature for the three days.
However, maybe we should consider this verse, and other verses in the story:
And he said: I cried out of my affliction to the Lord, and he heard me: I cried out of the belly of hell, and thou hast heard my voice. (Jonah 2:3)
Here, Jonah says he is crying out of the belly of sheol. Did Jonah physically die inside the sea creature, and his soul descend to sheol?
Now these verses:
I went down to the lowest parts of the mountains: the bars of the earth have shut me up for ever: and thou wilt bring up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.( Jonah 2:7)
With commentary: (Lowest. Heb. and Sept. “clefts.” — Bars, or prisons, in the abyss, (C.) farthest from the heights. W. )
**When my soul was in distress within me, I remembered the Lord: that my prayer may come to thee, unto thy holy temple. **(Jonah 2:8).
Perhaps, Jonah is describing the state of his soul in sheol. So, when Jesus said, that he would only give the Jews the sign of Jonah, was he referring to his physical death and the descent of his soul into sheol?
"As Jonah was three days and three nights in the fish’s belly so too, must the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth
So can we theorize that the gates of sheol did not prevail against Jesus, otherwise described as the bars of the earth that shut in Jonah’s soul?
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eo_chibears
Guest
Great insight, thanks!
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wiggbuggie
Guest
I think the symbolism behind the fish might be connected to
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/judaica/ejud_0002_0015_0_14857.html
or dagon the fish god
bible-history.com/past/dagon.html
now when the Ninevites saw Jonah coming from the belly of a fish, the believed in him and repented immediatly because they knew this man came from God. So God sent them a sign or symbol the pagan nation would understand.
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
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David_Alexander
Guest
A few weeks ago, Father Barron discussed this in his sermon on wordonfire:
wordonfire.org/WOF-Radio/Sermons/Sermon-Archive-for-2012/Sermon-576-The-Spiritual-Drama-of-Jonah-3rd.aspx
In essence, we may try to escape out calling, but we can’t. There is no escape from the belly of a large fish/whale and not only is there no escape but it also has the ability to move us back to our original calling.
wordonfire.org/WOF-Radio/Sermons/Sermon-Archive-for-2012/Sermon-576-The-Spiritual-Drama-of-Jonah-3rd.aspx
In essence, we may try to escape out calling, but we can’t. There is no escape from the belly of a large fish/whale and not only is there no escape but it also has the ability to move us back to our original calling.
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COPLAND_3
Guest
There is not an official position by the Church in the sense of whether the book of Jonah is historical or not, but the position of the Church is that the book is canonical. But the traditional view of the Church believes that it is historical, meaning that the majority of Christian history has understood the book to be historical. And why not? Is being 3 days and nights in the belly of a whale any more spectacular than Jesus rising from the dead? If you believe that the Resurrection of Christ is historical, which you have to believe in order to be a Christian, than how would it be hard to believe that God preserved Jonah in the belly of a whale?
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eo_chibears
Guest
I absolutely agree with you. If you have faith that a Supernatural being (name removed by moderator)regnated a human woman and she had a son…which is also the same Supernatural being, the whale is an easy story to swallow.
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Huiou_Theou
Guest
(The original texts say fish, not whale… but assuming they didn’t know the difference?)
Or for that matter, is it hard to believe that God resurrected Jonas from the dead?
Elijah had already raised sick people who had died (non-Jews even!) from the dead as well… so it isn’t as if there isn’t a precedent.
[Jesus says…!]
Luke 4:25 In truth I say to You, there were many widows in the days of Elias in Israel, when heaven was shut up three years and six months, when there was a great famine throughout all the earth.
Luke 4:26 And to none of them was Elias sent, but to Sarepta of Sidon, to a widow woman. (Tyre/Sidon == pagans…)
1King 17:18 And she said to Elias: What have I to do with thee, thou man of God? art thou come to me, that my iniquities should be remembered, and that thou shouldst kill my son?
1King 17:11 And Elias said to her: Give me thy son. And he took him out of her bosom, and carried him into the upper chamber where he abode, and laid him upon his own bed. …
1King 17:21 And he stretched, and measured himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, and said: O Lord, my God, let the soul of this child, I beseech thee, return into his body.
1King 17:22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elias: and the soul of the child returned into him, and he revived.
In any event;
It seems less likely (to me) that Jonas would have survived being eaten by a fish – than even if he were resurrected from the dead; There just aren’t that many fish which can swallow a person whole… (and Scripture doesn’t even assure us it did swallow him whole…)
On the other hand, internal to the story there are poetic contrasts between “sleep” in the ship’s belly; and “death/sheol” in the fish’s belly. Jonas was perhaps physically alive but spiritually dead in the belly of the ship, while he fled God’s command – and then while physically dead in a fish (or a pagan nation?) he was brought back to spiritual life.
That kind of contrast is typical of Jewish literary style (reversal of fortune).
I’m not sure what happened in a scientific historical/physical sense in the story of Jonas; but I am certain that the author INTENDED us to understand Jonas as dead in the fish in at least one way.
Nineveh was a far-inland river city (At least is was before the rivers changed their courses… BUT I really don’t think a whale could make it up those rivers in any event…) So fish were part of the cities lifestyle.
I was thinking about Jonah praying from Sheol, again.
Notice that Jonas speaks about seeing God’s temple;
Within the actual temple, there were to be twelve gates;
There may have been other nick-names, but in the later temples – one of these gates was called the “sheep” gate – (for the sheep went through that gate for passover preparation )
Keeping this in mind; In Ezra-Nehemiah, (During a rebuilding of the temple after exile) I found something curious:
Nehem 12:38 And above the gate of Ephraim, and above the old gate, and above the** fish gate** and the tower of Hananeel, and the tower of Emath, and even to the flock gate: and they stood still in the watch gate.
Nehem 12:39 And the two choirs of them that gave praise stood** still at the house of God**, and I and the half of the magistrates with me.
Where did this sudden never before seen name, “fish”, gate come from?
Looking around some more, for interpretation clues; I’m struck with how strong the book of Tobit echoes the elements of Jonas.
Now notice something really fishy … with a quick verse collage…
Tobit 1:11 … [during] the captivity he with his wife and his son and all his tribe went ] to the city of Ninive,
Tobit 6:2 … monstrous fish …
Tobit 6:19-21 – !!! Three !!!
Tobit 13:2 For thou scourgest, and thou savest: thou leadest down to hell, and bringest up again: and there is none that can escape thy hand.
…
Tobit 13:4 Because he hath therefore scattered you among the Gentiles, who know not him, that you may declare his wonderful works, and make them know that** there is no other almighty God besides him**.
And most of all…:
Tobit 14:6 The destruction of Ninive is at hand: for the word of the Lord must be fulfilled: and our brethren, that are scattered abroad from the land of Israel, shall return to it.
…
Tobit 14:13 For I see that its iniquity will bring it to destruction.
Now, many of Northern Israel NEVER returned from captivity; their hope could only be after death.
A handful of dates…
Jonah’s life is ca. 786-746BC;
2King 14:25 He restored the borders of Israel … according to the word of the Lord, the God of Israel, which he spoke by his servant, Jonas, the son of Amathi,…
I find it very interesting that within ~20 or so years AFTER Jonas’ preaching – Assyria would deport much of northern Israel into Nineveh. (It doesn’t make their repentance seem very strong… does it?)
The book of Tobit, also, is set in the 8th century BC.
Jonah is a prophet just prior to the destruction of Israel: eg: 720BC;
Tobit (who lives to around 102…?) lived through the destruction, and through much Nineveh’s rise to glory (about Ca. 700BC), and then was within a generation of it’s destruction at around 620BC.
… fish food for thought…
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mercytruth
Guest
Huiou Theou ,
Thank you for reminding us of 1 Kings 17:21, the poetic contrasts in the story of Jonah, of the 'Fish gate" of the temple, Tobit 13:2 and 2 Kings 14:25 (which I was not aware).
Yes, the significance of the story of Jonah and the fish as it relates to the sign that our Lord Jesus Christ gave to the Jewish people is one which is rich in historical precedence.
Finally, how significant is Jonah and his (dying?) within the fish, and being resurrected from the dead, to the universal symbol of our Lord Jesus Christ represented by the fish?
Thank you for reminding us of 1 Kings 17:21, the poetic contrasts in the story of Jonah, of the 'Fish gate" of the temple, Tobit 13:2 and 2 Kings 14:25 (which I was not aware).
Yes, the significance of the story of Jonah and the fish as it relates to the sign that our Lord Jesus Christ gave to the Jewish people is one which is rich in historical precedence.
Finally, how significant is Jonah and his (dying?) within the fish, and being resurrected from the dead, to the universal symbol of our Lord Jesus Christ represented by the fish?
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edwest2
Guest
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edwest2
Guest
Correct. To deprive God of His ability to do supernatural things, deprives God of His power to work miracles even today. There is a tendency here to turn many things Catholics like myself were taught as literally happening into stories with a message.
Peace,
Ed
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COPLAND_3
Guest
The Hebrew does have fish, but translators and historians understood it to be κήτους in Greek. St. Matthew, or whoever translated Matthew’s Gospel into Greek from Aramaic, Josephus, the Septuagint translators, and Josephus. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls manuscript 8HevXIIgr reads κήτους. κήτους is usually understood to mean whale or sea monster.(The original texts say fish, not whale… but assuming they didn’t know the difference?)
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fred_conty
Guest
You may believe that this is a true story if you wish and you are within your rights.
I read many many years ago an article on Jonah but a don’t remember how I came across it.
But the article was about a real man who did survive being swallowed by a whale.
That is all that stuck with me. Take it for what its worth if anything.
Just a thought.
I read many many years ago an article on Jonah but a don’t remember how I came across it.
But the article was about a real man who did survive being swallowed by a whale.
That is all that stuck with me. Take it for what its worth if anything.
Just a thought.
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FSGRY
Guest
LOLhttp://www.50centloseweight.com
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Joe_Kelley
Guest
I read a similar, or maybe the same, story. As I recall he fell off a whaler and was recovered when the caught the whale a couple of days later.
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Birdpreacher
Guest
So am I bad person for believing the story is just a myth ment to convey a moral teaching? I just can’t swallow the idea that a person could live in a whale for 3 days. ( i know that God is all powerful but I just think that the story is not meant to be taken literally)
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COPLAND_3
Guest
Its not a matter if a person can live within a whale for that amount of time, but whether God can preserve them. People have endured many things with God’s hand involved, but on their own power could never have done it.
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