The Strangers and the Trinity

  • Thread starter Thread starter SpeakInSilence
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

SpeakInSilence

Guest
do angels in the bible always announce their angels? I ask this question in regards to the strangers in Genesis chapter 18.

Traditionally it seems that these other two besides the lord are known as angels; however that doesn’t make sense to me.

Abraham’s Visitors.
1
  • The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot.
    2
    Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground,a
    3
    he said: “Sir,* if it please you, do not go on past your servant.
    4
    Let some water be brought, that you may bathe your feet, and then rest under the tree.
    5
    Now that you have come to your servant, let me bring you a little food, that you may refresh yourselves; and afterward you may go on your way.” “Very well,” they replied, “do as you have said.”
6
Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick, three measures* of bran flour! Knead it and make bread.”
7
He ran to the herd, picked out a tender, choice calf, and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it.
8
Then he got some curds* and milk, as well as the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them, waiting on them under the tree while they ate.
9
“Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There in the tent,” he replied.
10
One of them* said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son.” Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him.b
11
Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years, and Sarah had stopped having her menstrual periods.c
12
So Sarah laughed* to herself and said, “Now that I am worn out and my husband is old, am I still to have sexual pleasure?”
13
But the LORD said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really bear a child, old as I am?’
14
Is anything too marvelous for the LORD to do? At the appointed time, about this time next year, I will return to you, and Sarah will have a son.”d
15
Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But he said, “Yes, you did.”

What’s interesting about these series of verses is that at first we can clearly see that the Lord is visiting Abraham, but what is odd is the mysterious two others with him. Who are these men? and why is it n verse nine do they speak in unison? One could easily pass these off as angels; however at closer inspection of the bible this kind of language is never found again. Angels speak for God at times, angels work for God, but angels do not speak as equals with God. An important note is that the narrator of the story is saying “they” as if all three had the same authority, so it was a third party who identified this distinction.

Let’s look a little closer.

Verse 10 and verse 13-14 have something strange about them, yes indeed. Verse 10 says
One of them* said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son.” Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him

The bible says “one of them”, not directly indicating the Lord, said " “I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son.”

However verse 14 says makes the same promise as verse 10 HOWEVER this time it is the Lord who is actually speaking.

What is nuts to me about these is that one of the two and the Lord both make the same promise; the promise of delivering a child to Sarah.

Is this an example of God manifesting in three people to show the nature of the Triune God?
 
An interesting observation. I have heard people say that one of the strangers was Jesus, since no one can see God’s face and live, but Scripture plainly says it was the Lord. I have to admit I am puzzled. Good job.👍
 
Perhaps it would help to read the rest of Genesis 18 for context
 
NAB notes: Abraham addresses the leader of the group, whom he does not yet recognize as the Lord; in the next two verses he speaks to all three men. The other two are later (Gn 19:1) identified as angels. The shifting numbers and identification of the visitors are a narrative way of expressing the mysterious presence of God.

From a Protestant commentary:
Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees: Here again, the Lord came to Abraham in human appearance. This is another presentation of Jesus in human form before His incarnation.

We can assume that this was God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, appearing to Abraham before His incarnation and birth at Bethlehem. We assume this because of God the Father it says, No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him (John 1:18), and no man has ever seen God in the Person of the Father (1 Timothy 6:16). Therefore, if God appeared to someone in human appearance in the Old Testament (and no one has seen God the Father) it makes sense the appearance is of the eternal Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, before His incarnation in Bethlehem.

Behold, three men were standing by him: We don’t know if Abraham immediately recognized who these visitors were. Though the Lord (in the Person of Jesus Christ) appeared to Abraham twice before (Genesis 12:7; 17:1), we don’t know if Jesus looked the same each time, or if Abraham could just know who this was.
 
SpeakInSilence said:
What’s interesting about these series of verses is that at first we can clearly see that the Lord is visiting Abraham, but what is odd is the mysterious two others with him. Who are these men? and why is it n verse nine do they speak in unison? One could easily pass these off as angels; however at closer inspection of the bible this kind of language is never found again. Angels speak for God at times, angels work for God, but angels do not speak as equals with God. An important note is that the narrator of the story is saying “they” as if all three had the same authority, so it was a third party who identified this distinction.
Click to expand...
It might be useful to start with the term ‘angel’: ‘αγγελος’ is just “messenger” (and apparently Hebrew מלאך is the same); rather than being a description of the nature of the thing, it is merely the description of a role, hence we have this one or that one or another one being described as “the Angel of the Lord”, whoever has the duty that day filling that role. In vv.5 and 9, three angels could well be sharing the role between them, which is then shifted to just one in v.13. That, after all, would make it obvious to Abraham that they were not just three men.

It is a question well worth asking in a Jewish forum, however, because there will have been plenty of rabbinical commentary upon this.
 
kkollwitz said:
NAB notes: Abraham addresses the leader of the group, whom he does not yet recognize as the Lord; in the next two verses he speaks to all three men. The other two are later (Gn 19:1) identified as angels. The shifting numbers and identification of the visitors are a narrative way of expressing the mysterious presence of God.

From a Protestant commentary:
Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees: Here again, the Lord came to Abraham in human appearance. This is another presentation of Jesus in human form before His incarnation.

We can assume that this was God, in the Person of Jesus Christ, appearing to Abraham before His incarnation and birth at Bethlehem. We assume this because of God the Father it says, No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him (John 1:18), and no man has ever seen God in the Person of the Father (1 Timothy 6:16). Therefore, if God appeared to someone in human appearance in the Old Testament (and no one has seen God the Father) it makes sense the appearance is of the eternal Son, the Second Person of the Trinity, before His incarnation in Bethlehem.

Behold, three men were standing by him: We don’t know if Abraham immediately recognized who these visitors were. Though the Lord (in the Person of Jesus Christ) appeared to Abraham twice before (Genesis 12:7; 17:1), we don’t know if Jesus looked the same each time, or if Abraham could just know who this was.
Click to expand...
I see your point; however I have read the whole of 18 and it doesn’t make clear who the other two are, they just refer to them as “one of them” and language such as that.

Also, how do we know that the other two were angels based on Genesis 19? Why didn’t 18 refer to them as angels, as it was made plainly in 19?

Why did they speak in unison? Does God share glory with angels? Also, why does one of them make the exact same promise as the Lord? How can they both deliver the same promise?

I’ve always heard one of them was Christ, but is it beyond thought this was a manifestation of God in three persons?

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/strangers-no-longer-together-on-the-journey-of-hope.cfm

In this letter from from the USSB they make this statement

Even in the harsh stories of migration, God is present, revealing himself. Abraham stepped out in faith to respond to God’s call (Gn 12:1).
He and Sarah extended bounteous hospitality to three strangers who were actually a manifestation of the Lord, and this became a paradigm for the response to strangers of Abraham’s descendants.
Click to expand...
I find it odd that the Bishops didn’t clarify it was the “The Lord and two angels.”
 
Mystophilus said:
It might be useful to start with the term ‘angel’: ‘αγγελος’ is just “messenger” (and apparently Hebrew מלאך is the same); rather than being a description of the nature of the thing, it is merely the description of a role, hence we have this one or that one or another one being described as “the Angel of the Lord”, whoever has the duty that day filling that role. In vv.5 and 9, three angels could well be sharing the role between them, which is then shifted to just one in v.13. That, after all, would make it obvious to Abraham that they were not just three men.

It is a question well worth asking in a Jewish forum, however, because there will have been plenty of rabbinical commentary upon this.
Click to expand...
Three angels beginning referred to as Lord? Sounds like heretical angels to me.
 
In De Laurentis’ The Bible: In the Begining, John Huston the actual director, brilliantly has Peter O’Toole portraying all three “angels”, leaving it open to are these created spirits or a manifestation of the Trinity
 
I don’t think we can overlook the fact that there were three of them. Christ would have been quite capable of turning up by Himself had He wanted to, resulting in a similar dialogue and the same promise - a child for an elderly couple.

I think it was an early intimation of the Trinity, even if they were not Father, Son and Holy Ghost in human form.

Two of them may have been angels, since in the next chapter (19), two angels went to Sodom, after which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. I assume they were two out of the same three visitors Abraham had at the Tree of Mamre.

I also wonder if these two are the same supernatural beings described as the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11), since it doesn’t seem to bother their consciences much when they bring destruction on the human race.
 
These verses in Hebrew don’t say malak YHWH [messenger of the LORD, i.e., angel] but enowsh, men. Nor does the Greek Septuagint translation say aggelos [angel], but andres, men. So I don’t see a compelling reason to suppose any of the three are angels.
 
SpeakInSilence said:
do angels in the bible always announce their angels? I ask this question in regards to the strangers in Genesis chapter 18.

Traditionally it seems that these other two besides the lord are known as angels; however that doesn’t make sense to me.

Abraham’s Visitors.
1
  • The LORD appeared to Abraham by the oak of Mamre, as he sat in the entrance of his tent, while the day was growing hot.
    2
    Looking up, he saw three men standing near him. When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to greet them; and bowing to the ground,a
    3
    he said: “Sir,* if it please you, do not go on past your servant.
    4
    Let some water be brought, that you may bathe your feet, and then rest under the tree.
    5
    Now that you have come to your servant, let me bring you a little food, that you may refresh yourselves; and afterward you may go on your way.” “Very well,” they replied, “do as you have said.”
6
Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, “Quick, three measures* of bran flour! Knead it and make bread.”
7
He ran to the herd, picked out a tender, choice calf, and gave it to a servant, who quickly prepared it.
8
Then he got some curds* and milk, as well as the calf that had been prepared, and set these before them, waiting on them under the tree while they ate.
9
“Where is your wife Sarah?” they asked him. “There in the tent,” he replied.
10
One of them* said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son.” Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him.b
11
Now Abraham and Sarah were old, advanced in years, and Sarah had stopped having her menstrual periods.c
12
So Sarah laughed* to herself and said, “Now that I am worn out and my husband is old, am I still to have sexual pleasure?”
13
But the LORD said to Abraham: “Why did Sarah laugh and say, ‘Will I really bear a child, old as I am?’
14
Is anything too marvelous for the LORD to do? At the appointed time, about this time next year, I will return to you, and Sarah will have a son.”d
15
Sarah lied, saying, “I did not laugh,” because she was afraid. But he said, “Yes, you did.”

What’s interesting about these series of verses is that at first we can clearly see that the Lord is visiting Abraham, but what is odd is the mysterious two others with him. Who are these men? and why is it n verse nine do they speak in unison? One could easily pass these off as angels; however at closer inspection of the bible this kind of language is never found again. Angels speak for God at times, angels work for God, but angels do not speak as equals with God. An important note is that the narrator of the story is saying “they” as if all three had the same authority, so it was a third party who identified this distinction.

Let’s look a little closer.

Verse 10 and verse 13-14 have something strange about them, yes indeed. Verse 10 says
One of them* said, “I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son.” Sarah was listening at the entrance of the tent, just behind him

The bible says “one of them”, not directly indicating the Lord, said " “I will return to you about this time next year, and Sarah will then have a son.”

However verse 14 says makes the same promise as verse 10 HOWEVER this time it is the Lord who is actually speaking.

What is nuts to me about these is that one of the two and the Lord both make the same promise; the promise of delivering a child to Sarah.

Is this an example of God manifesting in three people to show the nature of the Triune God?
Click to expand...
I concur with you… there are passages such as this that are full of mysteries… sadly, our limiting understanding tend to compound the intricacies rather than clarify them… even when a person is said to be a “scholar/theologean” his/her perspective is usually clouded by personal prejudices and preconceptions (ditto for the Jewish sages)… my understanding is that God can and has appeared in manners that are both revealing (in limited ways) and concealing… St. Paul states that the “Rock” that followed the Hebrew people in the dessert and provided them with the water of Life was Jesus… clearly Jesus had not been Incarnate at that particular time… yet, the Holy Spirti saw fit to reveal this particular understanding to St. Paul…

…so is it far fetched that God (either as single “Lord” or Triune Lord) could well have been the One that spoke directly to Abraham? Not really!

…as far as the angels… have you noticed that there are passages that speak of the Angel of Yahweh (Yahweh’s Angel) and that in this particular relation that particular “Angel” actually not only seems to be speaking for God but is actually stating that He is Yahweh God?.. conversely, have you noticed that when an angel appears as a messenger (not as the Angel of God) that entity is quick to point out that he is a messenger or servant of Almighty God?

…personally, I believe that this passage can be a type of the Holy Trinity–a little window into the inner workings of God!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Mystophilus said:
It might be useful to start with the term ‘angel’: ‘αγγελος’ is just “messenger” (and apparently Hebrew מלאך is the same); rather than being a description of the nature of the thing, it is merely the description of a role, hence we have this one or that one or another one being described as “the Angel of the Lord”, whoever has the duty that day filling that role. In vv.5 and 9, three angels could well be sharing the role between them, which is then shifted to just one in v.13. That, after all, would make it obvious to Abraham that they were not just three men.

It is a question well worth asking in a Jewish forum, however, because there will have been plenty of rabbinical commentary upon this.
Click to expand...
…so your understanding is that “Angel of the Lord” is a title of a messenger who has a particular task of passing a the Word of God to man? …what about those instances when that very specific expression is not used, when the description is merely an angel or when there’s a very specific name offered (ie: Gabriel, Mitchael, Raphael)?

Maran atha!

Angel
 
SpeakInSilence said:
I see your point; however I have read the whole of 18 and it doesn’t make clear who the other two are, they just refer to them as “one of them” and language such as that.

Also, how do we know that the other two were angels based on Genesis 19? Why didn’t 18 refer to them as angels, as it was made plainly in 19?

Why did they speak in unison? Does God share glory with angels? Also, why does one of them make the exact same promise as the Lord? How can they both deliver the same promise?

I’ve always heard one of them was Christ, but is it beyond thought this was a manifestation of God in three persons?

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/immigration/strangers-no-longer-together-on-the-journey-of-hope.cfm

In this letter from from the USSB they make this statement

Even in the harsh stories of migration, God is present, revealing himself. Abraham stepped out in faith to respond to God’s call (Gn 12:1).

I find it odd that the Bishops didn’t clarify it was the “The Lord and two angels.”
Click to expand...
…interestingly enough, there are additional mysteries in this chapter:

a) though they are introduced as angels, Scritpures also refers to them as men
b) these men utilize supernatual powers reminiscent of the tower of Babel (mass confusion)
c) they reveal that they are there to destroy that “place”
d) Lot is constantly referring to them as “Lord” and they do not distance themselves from such reverential treatment (as the angel in Apocalypse is quick to do), finally
e) though the “men/angel” state that they are to destroy the place, it is Yahweh God who “rained down on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire of his own sending.”

…this particular rendering of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is quite similar to Jesus’ Resurrection from the Dead (Jesus gave His Life to take up again, Yahweh God Resurrected the Son, the Holy Spirit Resurrected Christ–also Creation: Yahweh God is the only Creator, Christ Created everything that exists, the Holy Spirit is the Lord Giver of Life Whom God used to Created all that exists)… the Triune God at Work!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Bob_Crowley said:
I don’t think we can overlook the fact that there were three of them. Christ would have been quite capable of turning up by Himself had He wanted to, resulting in a similar dialogue and the same promise - a child for an elderly couple.

I think it was an early intimation of the Trinity, even if they were not Father, Son and Holy Ghost in human form.

Two of them may have been angels, since in the next chapter (19), two angels went to Sodom, after which Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. I assume they were two out of the same three visitors Abraham had at the Tree of Mamre.

I also wonder if these two are the same supernatural beings described as the Two Witnesses (Revelation 11), since it doesn’t seem to bother their consciences much when they bring destruction on the human race.
Click to expand...
…but Scriptures never state that these three were actual men–rather, by both Abraham’s and Lot’s recognition, these were beings that merited reverence… and angels cannot accept worship in any form; additionally, one of the three is designated as Yahweh by Scriptures and none of them correct the men misunderstanding of their status, if they in deed were only servants of God.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top