The Suffering of G-d and the atonement of the son of man?

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Did G-d suffer, and did the son of man, Ezekiel atone for the sins of Israel before the destruction of the first temple?

**1. "Now you, son of man, take a brick for yourself and place it before you, and engrave upon it a city-Jerusalem.

א. וְאַתָּה בֶן אָדָם קַח לְךָ לְבֵנָה וְנָתַתָּה אוֹתָהּ לְפָנֶיךָ וְחַקּוֹתָ עָלֶיהָ עִיר אֶת יְרוּשָׁלִָם **

(Ezekiel 4:1)

**4. And you shall lie on your left side, and you shall place the iniquity of the house of Israel through it; the number of the days that you shall lie on it, you will bear their iniquity.

ד. וְאַתָּה שְׁכַב עַל צִדְּךָ הַשְּׂמָאלִי וְשַׂמְתָּ אֶת עֲו‍ֹן בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל עָלָיו מִסְפַּר הַיָּמִים אֲשֶׁר תִּשְׁכַּב עָלָיו תִּשָּׂא אֶת עֲו‍ֹנָם:** (Ezekiel 4;4)

on your left side: to bear the pain and torture [over] the number of days corresponding to the number of years that My spirit oppressed Me, so to speak, because they provoked Me, and you will atone for their iniquity since the retribution that I say I will bring upon them is painful to you. (Commentary by Rashi)

**5. Now I have given you the years of their iniquity by the number of days, three hundred and ninety days, and you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
ה. וַאֲנִי נָתַתִּי לְךָ אֶת שְׁנֵי עֲו‍ֹנָם לְמִסְפַּר יָמִים שְׁלֹשׁ מֵאוֹת וְתִשְׁעִים יוֹם וְנָשָׂאתָ עֲו‍ֹן בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל: ** (Ezekiel 4;5)

*I have given you the years of their iniquity, etc.: I have made it easier for you to tolerate the pain that I Myself suffered for the number of the years that they sinned before Me: for you I converted it to that number in days. [Another explanation: שְּׁנֵי is like שְׁנַיִם, two, and so did Jonathan render: Now I have given you twice as much as their iniquity. This does not appear in other editions]. * (commentary by Rashi)

chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/showrashi/false/aid/16102/jewish/Chapter-4.htm#showrashi=true
 
Ad_Orientem said:
God is impassible; he does not suffer. Christ suffered in his humanity alone. cf. S.T. III, Q. 46, a12.
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So when Isaiah 63:10 speaks of the children of Israel as having 'grieved his Holy Spirit" and the apostle Paul says to the church of Ephesus in Eph.4:30 'grieve not the Holy Spirit" these inspired writers are speaking metaphorically?
 
JMJ91 said:
So when Isaiah 63:10 speaks of the children of Israel as having 'grieved his Holy Spirit" and the apostle Paul says to the church of Ephesus in Eph.4:30 'grieve not the Holy Spirit" these inspired writers are speaking metaphorically?
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Yes.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Yes.
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So when the holy scriptures speak of God as merciful and full of compassion, or that Jesus was ‘moved with compassion’, we are to think of these expressions as metaphorical? I think this idea of God being some sort of computerized mind who is immovable needs to be reconsidered.
 
JMJ91 said:
So when the holy scriptures speak of God as merciful and full of compassion, or that Jesus was ‘moved with compassion’, we are to think of these expressions as metaphorical? I think this idea of God being some sort of computerized mind who is immovable needs to be reconsidered.
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I hear where you’re coming from.

Jesus was literally moved with compassion because he is fully human. If he had emotions or moods in his divine nature, God would not be unchanging–or God.

Being impassible and immutable doesn’t have to mean being indifferent or cold like a computer. God loves us; he is Love itself–but his love is not like ours. His divine nature transcends our understanding.

Thankfully we don’t have to figure out God’s nature. We go through Jesus–who does have emotions like ours, who shared our sufferings, who died for us.
 
What is with all the goyim spouting Hebrew all of a sudden? Is it a fad?
 
Ad_Orientem said:
I hear where you’re coming from.

Jesus was literally moved with compassion because he is fully human. If he had emotions or moods in his divine nature, God would not be unchanging–or God.

Being impassible and immutable doesn’t have to mean being indifferent or cold like a computer. God loves us; he is Love itself–but his love is not like ours. His divine nature transcends our understanding.

Thankfully we don’t have to figure out God’s nature. We go through Jesus–who does have emotions like ours, who shared our sufferings, who died for us.
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Jesus has revealed the Father through himself and through his parables, such as the parable of the Prodigal Son. These revelations of God the Father through Jesus refute the notion that God the Father is incapable of such feelings as anger, compassion, or grief.

Though they are never comparable to our own emotions, they are another dimension of God that are beyond the realm of theological reasoning.

It seems as though we have at least two divergent views of God within the monotheistic faiths. The theological theoretical view through reason, and the passionate view through contemplative prayer and mysticism.
 
andrewstx said:
What is with all the goyim spouting Hebrew all of a sudden? Is it a fad?
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My quotation was from a Jewish commentary on Ezekiel 4:1-4. This commentary by Rashi seems to imply two things that seem to be contrary to Jewish thought. That G-d can suffer from grief, and that a human being can bear the iniquity of others, in this case Ezekiel bearing the iniquity of Israel.

The irony of this scripture for myself, is that Ezekiel is called the Son of Man. That he foresaw the destruction of Jerusalem and of the first temple. That he bore the iniquity of Israel before its destruction

Jesus is the only Jewish prophet to have foreseen the destruction of the second temple and of Jerusalem. He was also referred to as the Son of Man and he bore the sins of us all before the destruction of Jerusalem and of the second temple.
 
JMJ91 said:
It seems as though we have at least two divergent views of God within the monotheistic faiths. The theological theoretical view through reason, and the passionate view through contemplative prayer and mysticism.
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Why divide reason and experience into views? I see them as complimentary. And agree with what you wrote above.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Why divide reason and experience into views? I see them as complimentary. And agree with what you wrote above.
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As imperfect as we are as human beings, I think that we naturally fall into left side-
right side, type A- type B viewpoints of learning and personality. Thus, our different views, or approaches in how to perceive God. Ideally, we should learn to incorporate both.
 
That’s an insightful observation. I wonder if it’s a similar thing with people overemphasizing Christ’s divinity or humanity at the expense of the other.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
That’s an insightful observation. I wonder if it’s a similar thing with people overemphasizing Christ’s divinity or humanity at the expense of the other.
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Possibly. If we are inclined in using the logic and reason of our spirit, we might not be in touch with the emotional, creative intelligence of our humanity, and thus, think of Jesus soley as a divine being. If we are inclined in using our creative, emotional intelligence of our humanity we may think of Jesus soley as a human being.

If we were able to unite our logical and emotional intelligence, we may be able to better communicate with others, yet we would fall short of truly knowing God.

As I understand St. John of the Cross, we must die to our intellect to receive divine faith. We must die to our memory of emotion to receive divine hope. We must die to our own selfish will to receive divine love… all of which are through the holy sacraments, the holy scriptures and the Holy Spirit of God.

Ultimately, as I understand St. John of the Cross, we must know ourselves, in order to die to ourselves and thus, to truly know God. At which point, we would know the difference between divine wisdom and human logic, betwwen the fruit of the Holy Spirit and human emotion, between the love of God and the human ego.
 
Is that in the Ascent? I never got around to reading that, even though it’s supposed to come before the Dark Night which everyone has heard of.

Anyway, good stuff, and good reminders. Thanks for sharing this.
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Is that in the Ascent? I never got around to reading that, even though it’s supposed to come before the Dark Night which everyone has heard of.

Anyway, good stuff, and good reminders. Thanks for sharing this.
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Yes, a very incomplete and imperfect synopsis of the Ascent of Mt. Carmel, and of the Dark Night.

I think that St. John of the Cross understood the extremity of the suffering of Jesus Christ, both in his humanity and in his divinity. For St. John of the Cross, the Dark Night was a purgative suffering equivalent to the sufferings of purgatory.

Even more so, St. Faustina understood her sufferings in union with the sufferings of Jesus Christ as the atonement for sin. Much like, but more so, than the atonement that the prophet Ezekiel underwent in bearing the sins of Israel as described in Ezekiel 4. .

St. Faustina explains her understanding of the suffering of Jesus Christ in both his humanity and in his divinity by the prayer she was given:

“Eternal Father, I offer to Thee, the body and blood, soul and Divinity of your beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, as an atonement for our sins, and for the sins of the whole world.”

The Jewish commentary on Ezekiel speaks of the affliction of the Holy Spirit over the sins of Israel. Like a good father, our Eternal Father is afflicted and grieved by our sins. He is afflicted when we are not the holy people to an unbelieving world. He is grieved that we are wayward children, as prodigal children.

**“Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be a propitiation (atonement) for our sins.” **(I John 4:10)

The sufferings of the prophets, the sages, the saints and the contemplatives can only be understood from the extreme atonement sufferings of our Lord Jesus Christ in both his humanity and his divinity. "For no servant is above his master"

The affliction and grief of our Eternal Father can only be understood by the words of Jesus himself, “God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him, will not perish, but have everlasting life.”
 
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