The Sufficiency Of Bible Revelation

[St.Eric]

Hi DA,

Paul was explicit when he said that “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

Why do I believe it applies to the entire Genesis to Revelation? Because I believe that God is sovereign and by faith I believe every Word of God to be true.

Pro 30:5 Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

God created everything. He knows everything. He is not limited by space or time. He can certainly put a book together however He sees fit. And, if someone tampers with His Word correct that person. If that person refuses reproof… well we know what happens.

Pro 15:10
Correction [is] grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: [and] he that hateth reproof shall die.

DA, It appears you’ve rationalized everything to fit your belief. What if you’re wrong in your interpretation? What if those verses mean exactly what they say?

Hey believers, Catholics don’t have a problem with the quotes from the OT. After all, Jesus came to FULLFILL the law and not abolish it. What we have a problem with is what you infer from the quotes you use. Yes, ALL scripture is profitable but no where in scripture does it say that scripture is the be al and end all of the deposit of faith. 1 Tim 3:15 tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. You simply have to admit that while all scripture is profitable and is the perfect word of God, nowhere does it state that scripture is where the word of God stops. Nowhere does the bible state that we are to find the entire deposit of faith in the scriptures.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Hey believers, Catholics don’t have a problem with the quotes from the OT. After all, Jesus came to FULLFILL the law and not abolish it. What we have a problem with is what you infer from the quotes you use. Yes, ALL scripture is profitable but no where in scripture does it say that scripture is the be al and end all of the deposit of faith. 1 Tim 3:15 tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. You simply have to admit that while all scripture is profitable and is the perfect word of God, nowhere does it state that scripture is where the word of God stops. Nowhere does the bible state that we are to find the entire deposit of faith in the scriptures.

This has been my point exactly. Scripture is a very, very, very ad infinitum source for authoritative Revelation of the Word. But to claim that it is the only source denies the Revelation that assisted the Magisterium when it selected the Canon, that assisted the Magisterium and early Church prior to the Canonization of the Bible, assisted the Jewish leaders prior to the birth of Christ and assists each and everyone of us every day of our life in the whisperings of the Holy Spirit in our conscience.

The irony of this entire conversation is that the people claiming that the Bible is sufficient (with an implication that it is the ultimate be all and end all) essentially claim it is “the Bible and my personal interpretation as illuminated to me in PRIVATE REVELATION by the Holy Spirit”. This claim is balderdash as they refuse to contend with the reality that there are millions of people making the same claim with different interpretations.

To me, to assert such a concept (God has millions of conflicting versions of the truth) is blasphemy or worshipping one of many gods (multi-theism).

 

[believers]

Believers,

Let’s break this down one step at a time.

I would agree with this statement 1oo%. No argument from me at all.
Let’s look though first at the base of the Protestant Reformation. In the Westminster Confession, (I;VI): " The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men."

This all sounds good however, for this statement to be true, then there has to be two principles: 1) There must be a definition infallibly of what comprises Scripture. In other words how do we know that Gen-Rev is the inspired Scripture? The Bible doesn’t proclaim to us what is to be included in Scripture and what is not. As a matter of fact, prior to the Reformation the Catholic Bible was the Bible. All 73 books. Since " All things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture…", where did the Protestants derive (from Scripture) the basis of Scripture, and also removing the 6 deuterocannonical books? It is not there. It is not found. Historically the Earthly Body of Christ (the Catholic Church) led by the Holy Spirit to canonize the 73 books as Scripture. It has not changed until the mid 15oo’s. and (2) Where does the Scripture define the prior stated section of the Westminster Confession. If that is what the Protestants are basing their doctrine of Sola Scriptura on, it seems that that teaching in and of itself would be quite obvious.

Again, I agree with all these statements. However, if you remember, the Old Testament was not a backer of Sola Scriptura either. The Children of Israel were guided by 2 facts: 1) the Law, or the Torah, and 2) Moses as judge. Remember how the Hebrews had to bring their disputes and concerns before Moses, and what he said was binding. We read in Matthew 2 that Jesus even commanded the Jewish people to obey the rulers when they ruled from the “Chair of Moses”, but not to do what they do… they were hypocrites.

However, these citations again do not maintain a basis for Sola Scriptura.

Hi DA,

I confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also believe that He died for us, was buried, & resurrected. I love God with all my heart and love others too. Do I have any chance of going to heaven?

 

[believers]

Hey believers, Catholics don’t have a problem with the quotes from the OT. After all, Jesus came to FULLFILL the law and not abolish it. What we have a problem with is what you infer from the quotes you use. Yes, ALL scripture is profitable but no where in scripture does it say that scripture is the be al and end all of the deposit of faith. 1 Tim 3:15 tells us that the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. You simply have to admit that while all scripture is profitable and is the perfect word of God, nowhere does it state that scripture is where the word of God stops. Nowhere does the bible state that we are to find the entire deposit of faith in the scriptures.

Hi, if you’re going to use that verse, let’s not take it out of context. You’re assuming that Catholic church is THE Church. Apparently in THE church, the deacons will be allowed to marry. Remember, Peter was married. But in the latter days… a church will be deceived by forbidding the deacons not to be married AND commanding to abstain from meats. Sound familiar?

1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1Ti 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 3:14
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

1Ti 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Paul warns that in the"latter times some shall depart from the faith"…

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3
Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

 

[RyanL]

I confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also believe that He died for us, was buried, & resurrected. I love God with all my heart and love others too. Do I have any chance of going to heaven?

There’s a chance, sure. Does that mean you will? No. Does that mean you won’t? No. All it means is there’s a chance. You would also have a chance if you didn’t confess Jesus as Lord (if you were invincibly ignorant of the fact).

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[DARichards]

Hi DA,

I confess that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I also believe that He died for us, was buried, & resurrected. I love God with all my heart and love others too. Do I have any chance of going to heaven?

Believers,

Absolutely!!! However this gets into another issue for another thread probably, but you are now getting into the other “pillar” of the Protestant Reformation which is the doctrine of Sola Fide Justification, or the fact that we are justified soley on the matter of our faith in Christ. This again is an incorrect interpretation and was never taught by the early Church.

Our Eternal Salvation is not ONLY based on our Faith in Christ, but how we allow that faith to work in our lives and how we take that faith to further expand the Kingdom of God and serve others.

Faith alone will not save us, just as our works alone will not save us. James makes it very clear that what we do, how we live our lives is the justification of our faith. People who believe that their good works will save them outside of their faith in Christ are mistaken.

 

[DARichards]

Hi, if you’re going to use that verse, let’s not take it out of context. You’re assuming that Catholic church is THE Church. Apparently in THE church, the deacons will be allowed to marry. Remember, Peter was married. But in the latter days… a church will be deceived by forbidding the deacons not to be married AND commanding to abstain from meats. Sound familiar?

1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1Ti 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 3:14
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

1Ti 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Paul warns that in the"latter times some shall depart from the faith"…

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3
Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats

, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Believers,

I think that you are getting confused with doctrine and practice, and there is a big difference between the two.

Doctrine in infallible and cannot be changed. Practice is how we do things, and can be changed. The Catholic Church doesn’t forbid marriage, just if you want to be a priest. This is the practice of the Roman Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, in the Eastern Catholic Church, their priests are allowed to marry. That is their practice. Neither are infallible doctrines. In the case of a deacon, my understanding is that you can be a deacon if you are presently married. If you become a deacon and are not married, or your wife dies, then you are not eligible. Again, this is a practice, not a doctrine. This can change. Also, if you don’t like the celibacy issue, then apparently God has not called you to that office. It doesn’t make you any less of a Catholic, or a Christian, just that there is another area in which you can serve.

 

[believers]

Believers,

Absolutely!!! However this gets into another issue for another thread probably, but you are now getting into the other “pillar” of the Protestant Reformation which is the doctrine of Sola Fide Justification, or the fact that we are justified soley on the matter of our faith in Christ. This again is an incorrect interpretation and was never taught by the early Church.

Our Eternal Salvation is not ONLY based on our Faith in Christ, but how we allow that faith to work in our lives and how we take that faith to further expand the Kingdom of God and serve others.

Faith alone will not save us, just as our works alone will not save us. James makes it very clear that what we do, how we live our lives is the justification of our faith. People who believe that their good works will save them outside of their faith in Christ are mistaken.

So what you’re saying is… I am saved as a Protestant without being in the Catholic church. I am saved by my faith in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know if you realized this, but many Catholics are going to have a hard time agreeing with you on that one.

 

[believers]

Believers,

I think that you are getting confused with doctrine and practice, and there is a big difference between the two.

Doctrine in infallible and cannot be changed. Practice is how we do things, and can be changed. The Catholic Church doesn’t forbid marriage, just if you want to be a priest. This is the practice of the Roman Catholic Church. As a matter of fact, in the Eastern Catholic Church, their priests are allowed to marry. That is their practice. Neither are infallible doctrines. In the case of a deacon, my understanding is that you can be a deacon if you are presently married. If you become a deacon and are not married, or your wife dies, then you are not eligible. Again, this is a practice, not a doctrine. This can change. Also, if you don’t like the celibacy issue, then apparently God has not called you to that office. It doesn’t make you any less of a Catholic, or a Christian, just that there is another area in which you can serve.

DA, You know as well as I that we are in the latter times. So which church forbids to marry? The only church that I know of that fits the bill is the Roman Catholic Church. It does not permit priests to marry after receiving Holy Orders. Doesn’t it seem odd that Peter the first pope was married and now Popes don’t?

In addition, the RCC says to abstain from eating meats during some times in the year. Does this seem odd to you when the Bible clearly says that it was going to happen?

 

[Orionthehunter]

DA, You know as well as I that we are in the latter times. So which church forbids to marry? The only church that I know of that fits the bill is the Roman Catholic Church. It does not permit priests to marry after receiving Holy Orders. Doesn’t it seem odd that Peter the first pope was married and now Popes don’t?

In addition, the RCC says to abstain from eating meats during some times in the year. Does this seem odd to you when the Bible clearly says that it was going to happen?

What evidence do you have that Peter was married while Pope? If my wife were to die before me, her mother remains my mother-in-law.

Regarding abstaining from meat on Friday’s, this is a teaching designed as a sacrificial gift to Jesus to share in a small way in Calvary. Is this something for which you are really going to hang your hat on to discredit the Catholic Church?

But in reality these are not directly related to the subject of the thread and respect to the direct issue probably requires you to start a new thread on these issues if you are so inclined.

 

[DARichards]

So what you’re saying is… I am saved as a Protestant without being in the Catholic church. I am saved by my faith in Christ Jesus.

I don’t know if you realized this, but many Catholics are going to have a hard time agreeing with you on that one.

What I am actually saying is that no one person is able to judge the salvation of any other man. That is not our job. Our Lord holds our salvation on what we do with the knowledge that we have and what we do with that knowledge. That matter is not public information.

What I am also saying is that our Salvation past, present, and future is a continual ongoing event that cannot be pinned to one point in time. In addition, our salvation is not based on our faith alone in Christ as Lord. The entire doctrine of Sola Fide should probably be addressed in a separate thread.

 

[DARichards]

Hi, if you’re going to use that verse, let’s not take it out of context. You’re assuming that Catholic church is THE Church. Apparently in THE church, the deacons will be allowed to marry. Remember, Peter was married. But in the latter days… a church will be deceived by forbidding the deacons not to be married AND commanding to abstain from meats. Sound familiar?

1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

1Ti 3:13
For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 3:14
These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:

1Ti 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Paul warns that in the"latter times some shall depart from the faith"…

1Ti 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3
Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats

, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

In regard to the forbidding to marry and the commandment to obstain from meats, Paul was referring to those commands being obeyed as a condition of Salvation. Even the Catholic Church does not maintain that Celibacy or abstinence of meats is a condition for salvation

 

[believers]

In regard to the forbidding to marry and the commandment to obstain from meats, Paul was referring to those commands being obeyed as a condition of Salvation. Even the Catholic Church does not maintain that Celibacy or abstinence of meats is a condition for salvation

DA, read these verses again carefully. That’s not what Paul is saying at all. He’s talking about believers getting **DECEIVED **in the latter times. Here are all the scriptures 1Ti 4:1-6. As for meats, Paul wants us to know that ALL meat should never be refused and received with thanksgiving.

1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1Ti 4:6 ¶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

 

[believers]

What I am actually saying is that no one person is able to judge the salvation of any other man. That is not our job. Our Lord holds our salvation on what we do with the knowledge that we have and what we do with that knowledge. That matter is not public information.

What I am also saying is that our Salvation past, present, and future is a continual ongoing event that cannot be pinned to one point in time. In addition, our salvation is not based on our faith alone in Christ as Lord. The entire doctrine of Sola Fide should probably be addressed in a separate thread.

Yes, but that’s not what many? most? Catholics believe. According to Catholics, I’m not part of the true church and therefore going to hell. Are there any Catholics here that disagree with me? I’d sure like to hear your take because I’ve debated over this issue many times. One of the guys in the forum even has a picture of Jesus and his sheep in a pen with names of Protestant, Jew, Muslim outside of the pen.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Yes, but that’s not what many? most? Catholics believe. According to Catholics, I’m not part of the true church and therefore going to hell. Are there any Catholics here that disagree with me? I’d sure like to hear your take because I’ve debated over this issue many times. One of the guys in the forum even has a picture of Jesus and his sheep in a pen with names of Protestant, Jew, Muslim outside of the pen.

That is absolutely NOT Church teaching, and I cannot believe you have encountered that many Catholic who’ve told you it is. I certainly haven’t.

Protestants and even non-Christians as well can certainly be saved. That said, it is possible that one can sin in failing to submit to the true, full Church when it has been revealed to them. Would this sin amount to total rejection of God that would incur damnation? In general, I think, most certainly not. Of course, a practicing Catholic could also, in fact, be entirely black-hearted and headed for Hell despite his exterior behavior.

What the Church teaches is that you ARE - along with ALL baptised Christians - actually part of it. You are just not “in full communion”. But you are our brother in Christ.

And if you are now wondering how non-Christians can be saved, or disbelieving it (as almost all fundamentalists and evangelicals do), it is because of their general faith in God and obience to Him. Scritpure tells us that none are saved without Christ - it doesn’t say that one has to know Him by that name in order to be saved by Him.

 

[believers]

What evidence do you have that Peter was married while Pope? If my wife were to die before me, her mother remains my mother-in-law.

Regarding abstaining from meat on Friday’s, this is a teaching designed as a sacrificial gift to Jesus to share in a small way in Calvary. Is this something for which you are really going to hang your hat on to discredit the Catholic Church?

But in reality these are not directly related to the subject of the thread and respect to the direct issue probably requires you to start a new thread on these issues if you are so inclined.

Paul said to NEVER abstain from meat. He also said to remind everyone so they could be good ministers of Jesus Christ.

1Ti 4:4
For every creature of God [is] good, and NOTHING TO BE REFUSED, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1Ti 4:5
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

1Ti 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ,

That is what the Bible says.

 

[believers]

That is absolutely NOT Church teaching, and I cannot believe you have encountered that many Catholic who’ve told you it is. I certainly haven’t.

Protestants and even non-Christians as well can certainly be saved. That said, it is possible that one can sin in failing to submit to the true, full Church when it has been revealed to them. Would this sin amount to total rejection of God that would incur damnation? In general, I think, most certainly not. Of course, a practicing Catholic could also, in fact, be entirely black-hearted and headed for Hell despite his exterior behavior.

What the Church teaches is that you ARE - along with ALL baptised Christians - actually part of it. You are just not “in full communion”. But you are our brother in Christ.

And if you are now wondering how non-Christians can be saved, or disbelieving it (as almost all fundamentalists and evangelicals do), it is because of their general faith in God and obience to Him. Scritpure tells us that none are saved without Christ - it doesn’t say that one has to know Him by that name in order to be saved by Him.

Great, well I’ll remember you next time someone tells me that I need to be part of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[Paul_Folbrecht]

Great, well I’ll remember you next time someone tells me that I need to be part of the Roman Catholic Church to be saved.

Great.

You should really actually spend some time studying the Catholic Church, too, with an open heart and mind, since it’s pretty apparent you have not done that.

I’ll leave this to the others who are doing a good job, but your interpretations of Paul’s epistle aren’t very good. Just one possible individual interpretation out of a great many possibilities, and not the most “obvious” or sensible one at that.

 

[Pug]

Yes, but that’s not what many? most? Catholics believe. According to Catholics, I’m not part of the true church and therefore going to hell. Are there any Catholics here that disagree with me? I’d sure like to hear your take because I’ve debated over this issue many times. One of the guys in the forum even has a picture of Jesus and his sheep in a pen with names of Protestant, Jew, Muslim outside of the pen.

I’m wondering if you’re having issues with relatives perhaps? Did you grow up Catholic and then leave the Church as an adult? I can imagine this generating some accusatory discussions, at least.

Usually, one would not see a Catholic tell a person who grew up Protestant that they are going to hell on account of their birth circumstances. But the internet houses a different group than the typical parish.

 

[believers]

Great.

You should really actually spend some time studying the Catholic Church, too, with an open heart and mind, since it’s pretty apparent you have not done that.

I’ll leave this to the others who are doing a good job, but your interpretations of Paul’s epistle aren’t very good. Just one possible individual interpretation out of a great many possibilities, and not the most “obvious” or sensible one at that.

Would you kindly interpret them for me? 1 Tim 4: Verses 1-6