The sufficiency of Christ

[Dancelittleewok]

In your response:

…since He is declaring us righteous of the basis of Christ’s righteousness alone.

But later you respond:

Nobody believes that those who are positonally declared righteous beased on the righteous of Christ alone, are not being made righteous by God the Holy Spirit.

Those two statements look contradictory to me. I understand your answers but it still doesn’t adequately explain my points.

Even if a sinner is declared righteous based on Christ, he is still a “dung hill covered by snow” as Luther would call it. And yes, I do understand the process of sanctification and have listen to Sproul and MacArthur myself.

Oh and I believe in Original sin but not the total depravity which you claimed to follow.

 

[2nd_Adam]

In your response:

But later you respond:

Those two statements look contradictory to me. I understand your answers but it still doesn’t adequately explain my points.

Even if a sinner is declared righteous based on Christ, he is still a “dung hill covered by snow” as Luther would call it. And yes, I do understand the process of sanctification and have listen to Sproul and MacArthur myself.

Oh and I believe in Original sin but not the total depravity which you claimed to follow.

I’m glad you are able to understand our essential differences in regards to a forensic justification, imputation and infused grace for justification. They are the historic divide between us. I have no idea how a Catholic can truly know the peace of God, or enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone with a Catholic view of justification. I don’t consider the official Catholic view to be damnable, but I sure believe it truly robs the Catholic Christian’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. And you guys know that is the bottom line. Do you really see a great love of God for what He has done for wretched sinners like me and you in the Catholic Church? Or do you see a competing affection for Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, and the Catholic Church Herself as compared to God Himself? I’m just laying it out as honestly as I can. We have been saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Does Catholic theology enable us or inhibit us from doing what we were created to do. If anyone who is in Christ wants to grow in your love for God, please study this statement: “Adoption through Propitiation” for they are the great yardsticks of God’s love for me and you…

 

[izoid]

I’m glad you are able to understand our essential differences in regards to a forensic justification, imputation and infused grace for justification. They are the historic divide between us. I have no idea how a Catholic can truly know the peace of God, or enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone with a Catholic view of justification. I don’t consider the official Catholic view to be damnable, but I sure believe it truly robs the Catholic Christian’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. And you guys know that is the bottom line. Do you really see a great love of God for what He has done for wretched sinners like me and you in the Catholic Church? Or do you see a competing affection for Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, and the Catholic Church Herself as compared to God Himself? I’m just laying it out as honestly as I can. We have been saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Does Catholic theology enable us or inhibit us from doing what we were created to do.

There is no competing affection for Mary, the saints or the Church. When you ask a friend to pray for you is that competing affections with Christ?

As far as the Eucharist goes, it is Jesus. No competition there, they are one in the same.

 

[2nd_Adam]

There is no competing affection for Mary, the saints or the Church. When you ask a friend to pray for you is that competing affections with Christ?

As far as the Eucharist goes, it is Jesus. No competition there, they are one in the same.

That’s your view brother, but we see things quite differently… don’t we? :hug1: However, we are still in the same family of God in Christ. :grouphug:

 

[tweetymom]

That’s your view brother, but we see things quite differently… don’t we? :hug1: However, we are still in the same family of God in Christ. :grouphug:

Amen we are!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’m glad you are able to understand our essential differences in regards to a forensic justification, imputation and infused grace for justification. They are the historic divide between us. I have no idea how a Catholic can truly know the peace of God, or enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone with a Catholic view of justification. I don’t consider the official Catholic view to be damnable, but I sure believe it truly robs the Catholic Christian’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. And you guys know that is the bottom line. Do you really see a great love of God for what He has done for wretched sinners like me and you in the Catholic Church? Or do you see a competing affection for Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, and the Catholic Church Herself as compared to God Himself? I’m just laying it out as honestly as I can. We have been saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Does Catholic theology enable us or inhibit us from doing what we were created to do. If anyone who is in Christ wants to grow in your love for God, please study this statement: “Adoption through Propitiation” for they are the great yardsticks of God’s love for me and you…

Out of curiosity, have you read Catholic sources like the Catechism? Yes, I’m aware about your radio listening and your signatures.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Out of curiosity, have you read Catholic sources like the Catechism? Yes, I’m aware about your radio listening and your signatures.

Actually about 12 years ago (±), I was given quite a bit of Catholic Answers tracts and materials, books and tapes by Scott Hahn, Patrick Madrid, Karl Keating’s Fundamentalism book, etc because I went door to door with Calvary Chapel, and helped a neighbor with information of leaving the Catholic Faith by their request. Back them, I owned a hard copy of the Catholic Catechism and the Companion of the Catechism, and attended an RCIA class and Catholic men’s fellowship per invite by the local Catholic apologist in the area.

 

[fhansen]

I take issue with that. 150 years ago the whole of America was anti-Catholic, and unfortunately some Latter-day Saints came under that influence, and made statements which were not correct, and in keeping with spirit and letter of the Restored gospel. But I believe I am right in saying that that has never been the official teaching position of the Church. Joseph Smith himself who started the whole process was not anti-Catholic. And in recent years the LDS Church has gone a long way to rectify those errors of the past.

By the time Mormonism came around, splitting off new churches had been going on for several hundred years and so was a common enough practice. But, if you think about it, this is an extremely radical thing to do, and, while there were schisms and heresies in the past, nothing like what happened from the time of the Reformation on had ever taken place. And while the Church may’ve benefited in many ways by the wake-up call that the Reformation presented to her, as she’s benefited by other challenges throughout her history including the difficult road of having the sins of her people brought out in public, one still has to ask themselves the serious question of whether or not new churches, often with major disagreements between each other, let alone with the CC, were ever called for and were truly Gods’ will.

 

[guanophore]

I think I have loved Zerinus more than you have in regard to what really matters. The truth divides.

I wonder why it is, when we do the same with Tweety, you don’t see that as loving?

 

[guanophore]

Question: Why are you a Morman instead of a Catholic? Not that it really matters to me just wondering, since the CC does not accept Mormans as Christians. I accept you tho as a friend, is that okay? I have some Mormen relatives and I love them all.

This post speaks volumes, Tweety. It is a reflection of your lack of regard for the revelation of God in Christ. I say that because, if you really did beleive that God has revealed Himself in the Catholic Church, then it would MATTER to you how people responded. You say you desire that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, yet you post that it really does not MATTER to you.

It also makes it clear that you understand how real Catholics here on CAF can accept you as a person, and love you, and yet still acknowledge that your faith is not Catholic. You can post this to Zerinius, but when we post the same types of expressions to you, you take offense.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I think I have loved Zerinus more than you have in regard to what really matters. The truth divides.

I wonder why it is, when we do the same with Tweety, you don’t see that as loving?

That’s almost not worth responding to. Tweetymom is a Christian and Zee is a Mormon. Maybe Tweetymom doesn’t post things which line up with staunch Catholicism, but from a Protestant perspective, that’s not a bad thing. Zee believes in a different Christ and different gospel than what orthodox Christians believe in. If you believe God saves sinners through the Mormon gospel and Mormon Jesus, then what else can I say.

 

[2nd_Adam]

This post speaks volumes, Tweety. It is a reflection of your lack of regard for the revelation of God in Christ. I say that because, if you really did beleive that God has revealed Himself in the Catholic Church, then it would MATTER to you how people responded. You say you desire that all be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth, yet you post that it really does not MATTER to you.

It also makes it clear that you understand how real Catholics here on CAF can accept you as a person, and love you, and yet still acknowledge that your faith is not Catholic. You can post this to Zerinius, but when we post the same types of expressions to you, you take offense.

Christ saves sinners and not the Catholic Church nor the Protestant Churches.

The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. - Apostle Paul

 

[guanophore]

I don’t know about that; but I am not aware of any official statement from the Catholic Church to that effect. If you know of one, perhaps you would be kind enough to share it with me.

I think it would be wise to take anything Tweety claims to believe as “Catholic” with caution. She has made it clear that her faith is not Catholic.

However, she is correct in this case. The Catholic Church can only recognize those who are validly baptized (Triune) as separated brothers and sisters.

 

[guanophore]

So now Z’s faith is on trial but 2nd Adam still hasn’t defended or answered our questions…

And what does Z’s faith have to do with the thread topic?

I think Z has figured out that 2nd’s agenda is one of straw.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I think it would be wise to take anything Tweety claims to believe as “Catholic” with caution. She has made it clear that her faith is not Catholic.

However, she is correct in this case. The Catholic Church can only recognize those who are validly baptized (Triune) as separated brothers and sisters.

http://www.klf.de/home/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/sylvester_tweety_master.jpg

I appeal to you as a brother in Christ, please don’t put Tweetymom through another witch hunt. It’s not really about being Catholic or a Calvinist. It’s about being Christ-like…loving God with all of our heart, soul, strength and mind, and loving our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[2nd_Adam]

And what does Z’s faith have to do with the thread topic?

I think Z has figured out that 2nd’s agenda is one of straw.

Please leave Tweetymom alone and work on this instead:

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I’m glad you are able to understand our essential differences in regards to a forensic justification, imputation and infused grace for justification. They are the historic divide between us. I have no idea how a Catholic can truly know the peace of God, or enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone with a Catholic view of justification. I don’t consider the official Catholic view to be damnable, but I sure believe it truly robs the Catholic Christian’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. And you guys know that is the bottom line. Do you really see a great love of God for what He has done for wretched sinners like me and you in the Catholic Church? Or do you see a competing affection for Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, and the Catholic Church Herself as compared to God Himself? I’m just laying it out as honestly as I can. We have been saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Does Catholic theology enable us or inhibit us from doing what we were created to do. If anyone who is in Christ wants to grow in your love for God, please study this statement: “Adoption through Propitiation” for they are the great yardsticks of God’s love for me and you…

 

[guanophore]

Mormon sources such as the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are not accepted by the Magisterium as being part of the Word of God (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition). Therefore, they should not be used on this thread within our discussion!

Well, it is your thread, so I guess you can make up whatever rules you want. However, you are in NC religions, so Zerinius can expect to share her faith and the support for it as she pleases. If you want to confine sources and participants, then your thread needs to be in Apologetics.

 

[guanophore]

2nd, did we ever say that the Mormon’s books are the Word of God? Because we have chosen to treat Z with dignity because he is a human being and doing that, doesn’t entail that any posters here have chosen “another gospel.”

This is a good point, and an apt refutation of what 2nd tried to apply from the scriptures (out of context). In fact, Paul is writing to those who had received the Apostolic faith from himself. Mormons and Calvanists have not received this gospel, so it is impossible for them to reject that which they never recieved. It is clear that 2nd has never been acquainted with the Apostolic gospel. All he has is a distillation drawn from the scriptures by those who have departed from the Apostolic Succession.

 

[benidict]

:hug1:

Hey Brother Benidict in Hawaii… I really believe it’s safer to contain Zee in the doghouse where we can control him from deceiving innocent Catholic and Protestant Christians with another gospel. I think I will send him a bouquet of TULIP flowers.

http://tulipstalk.com/In the DoghouseGraphic2.jpg

Hey my friend Zee, here’s some flowers for you. :flowers: They are TULIPS!

hi brother 2nd. i do not feel he is decieving me. im not willing to accept his gospel any more than i am yours. lol! be that as it may i will continue to fellowship with both of you freely. and listen to both your points of view. i only hope you two show respect for one another, and 2nd, you claiming the truth, must then show it by loving z. i never saw the apostle paul get crass or sarcastic with his pagan audience. and you z. try not to get too agrevated with 2nd. you need to love 2nd as well. you two really need to :hug1: even if you do not agree at all. one of you needs to take the high road, so the thread does not get ended, 2nd and i kinda did that on another thread i think. so lets remain cheritable in ALL our post. shall we.

 

[guanophore]

Is true charity bestowed upon only the elect by the elect?

I have actually heard this from some of my Reformed siblings here on CAF.