The sufficiency of Christ

[2nd_Adam]

My issue was with the Mormon issues as you’ve brought up hence why it was in bold for easier understanding. Yes, you brought up the Apostles, but that as well: “If you don’t think…” in regards to Guan’s post and used his actual posts that he did think otherwise.

What’s the Mormon issue? I started a thread about if Catholics considered Mormons to be their siblings in Christ. That thread is closed now, but many posted on it. So, just clearly state what is the Mormon issue so I can try to respond to it.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

What’s the Mormon issue? I started a thread about if Catholics considered Mormons to be their siblings in Christ. That thread is closed now, but many posted on it. So, just clearly state what is the Mormon issue so I can try to respond to it.

From post 555:

As I’ve said before, treating Zee or any other non-Catholic here with dignity as a human being is NOT equatable for choosing “another gospel” or not thinking that non-Christian faiths aren’t the mission field; A simple cursory view in any Mormon themed thread would show you that, but you’d rather present a straw men against a non-issue rather than answer the real questions given to you by Catholics about your view of sufficiency of Christ.

I feel that you’ve equated as such after many corrections. After so many corrections, I find it hard it to be in good faith, especially when Guan stated explicitly and eloquently otherwise.

 

[2nd_Adam]

From post 555:

As I’ve said before, treating Zee or any other non-Catholic here with dignity as a human being is NOT equatable for choosing “another gospel” or not thinking that non-Christian faiths aren’t the mission field; A simple cursory view in any Mormon themed thread would show you that, but you’d rather present a straw men against a non-issue rather than answer the real questions given to you by Catholics about your view of sufficiency of Christ.

I feel that you’ve equated as such after many corrections. After so many corrections, I find it hard it to be in good faith, especially when Guan stated explicitly and eloquently otherwise.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The message of the cross is foolishness and an offense to those who are perishing. Evangelicals consider Mormons as the mission field, so we share the truth in love when them so that they would come to know God through the living historic living Jesus Christ as defined in the historic creeds that we share. That is the true act of kindness to our Mormon relative, neighbors, and friends. Now if you think God saves sinners through the Mormon gospel and Mormon Jesus, we are not on the same page. Please try one more time before I leave for the day.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

• Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
  Apostolic teaching

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I have no idea what you are talking about. The message of the cross is foolishness and an offense to those who are perishing. Evangelicals consider Mormons as the mission field, so we share the truth in love when them so that they would come to know God through the living historic living Jesus Christ as defined in the historic creeds that we share. That is the true act of kindness to our Mormon relative, neighbors, and friends. Now if you think God saves sinners through the Mormon gospel and Mormon Jesus, we are not on the same page. Please try one more time before I leave for the day.

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” - Apostolic teaching

You have proven my point. Thank you.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You have proven my point. Thank you.

What are you trying to say, that God saves sinners apart from the gospel and the historic Jesus Christ? Are you saying that the Mormon Jesus, Hindu Jesus, and Islamic Jesus is the same Jesus that you know and worship?

2 Corinthians 11

Paul and the False Apostles

11:1 I wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness. Do bear with me! 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. 3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. 5 Indeed, I consider that I am not in the least inferior to these super-apostles. 6 Even if I am unskilled in speaking, I am not so in knowledge; indeed, in every way we have made this plain to you in all things.

7 Or did I commit a sin in humbling myself so that you might be exalted, because I preached God’s gospel to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and was in need, I did not burden anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied my need. So I refrained and will refrain from burdening you in any way. 10 As the truth of Christ is in me, this boasting of mine will not be silenced in the regions of Achaia. 11 And why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do!

12 And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

 

[zerinus]

Now if you think God saves sinners through the Mormon gospel and Mormon Jesus, we are not on the same page. Please try one more time before I leave for the day.

The trouble is, In Catholicism God does not “save sinners” through the Calvinist gospel either!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

What are you trying to say, that God saves sinners apart from the gospel and the historic Jesus Christ?

Nope. You’re putting words into my mouth.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Nope. You’re putting words into my mouth.

Well,

You have publicly rebuked me for some kind of sin against my brother. So, you are quite obligated to clarify what you are rebuking me for, don’t you think? You are demanding me to apologize to my Catholic Christian brother for intentionally distorting his post, so you need to try to support your actual claim and demand. I have narrowed in down to something about Mormonism.

Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
My issue was with the Mormon issues as you’ve brought up hence why it was in bold for easier understanding. Yes, you brought up the Apostles, but that as well: “If you don’t think…” in regards to Guan’s post and used his actual posts that he did think otherwise

Please work it, and I’ll check in with you later.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Well,

You have publicly rebuked me for some kind of sin against my brother. So, you are quite obligated to clarify what you are rebuking me for, don’t you think? You are demanding me to apologize to my Catholic Christian brother for intentionally distorting his post, so you need to try to support your actual claim and demand. I have narrowed in down to something about Mormonism.

I did so…see post 555, completely with bold and Guan’s actual posts. The burden of proof has been met. I have also PMed Guan about the situation and if he feels that I’ve misrepresented his posts–that he actually believes that Non-Christians aren’t a mission field–then I will publicly apologize to you, him and all of CAF as my penance.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I did so…see post 555, completely with bold and Guan’s actual posts. The burden of proof has been met. I have also PMed Guan about the situation and if he feels that I’ve misrepresented his posts–that he actually believes that Non-Christians aren’t a mission field–then I will publicly apologize to you, him and all of CAF as my penance.

Fair enough, Iet Guan speak for himself through public posting or PM to me. Now back to the subject at hand:

**The sufficiency of Christ **

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I’m glad you are able to understand our essential differences in regards to a forensic justification, imputation and infused grace for justification. They are the historic divide between us. I have no idea how a Catholic can truly know the peace of God, or enter the Sabbath rest found in Christ alone with a Catholic view of justification. I don’t consider the official Catholic view to be damnable, but I sure believe it truly robs the Catholic Christian’s joy and affection for God in what He has done for us in Christ. And you guys know that is the bottom line. Do you really see a great love of God for what He has done for wretched sinners like me and you in the Catholic Church? Or do you see a competing affection for Mary, the Saints, the Eucharist, and the Catholic Church Herself as compared to God Himself? I’m just laying it out as honestly as I can. We have been saved to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. Does Catholic theology enable us or inhibit us from doing what we were created to do. If anyone who is in Christ wants to grow in your love for God, please study this statement: “Adoption through Propitiation” for they are the great yardsticks of God’s love for me and you…

If we are done with the family sibling fighting that is irrelevant to the thread topic, please let’s continue with our discussion above. Do you agree that the bottom line has to do with our affection and love for God in regards to our mutually exclusive views on justification? I believe the Catholic view of justification hinders a Christian’s love for God for what He has done for us in Christ simply because we have a different view on the sufficiency of Christ. I believe God’s love is demonstrated through propitiation and adoption. When you guys are ready, I will supply Scripture proofs to support what I am proclaiming to us as siblings in Christ.

http://www.nloma.org/Portals/0/sunset_cross.jpg

What did the life and death of Jesus Christ merit for us as adopted children of God?

 

[PRmerger]

I believe God’s love is demonstrated through propitiation and adoption. When you guys are ready, I will supply Scripture proofs to support what I am proclaiming to us as siblings in Christ.

I believe that the must sublime gift of God to us is not that he makes us his children through adoption, but that God desires to marry us. Yup. Marry us.

Through the CC we know that God has given us his flesh and through this One Flesh Union of the Eucharist, mirrored in the marital embrace between husband and wife; we are so closely united to Him as only husband and wife can be. Not merely “adopted” children…but ONE FLESH with the Eternal Godhead.

How. Awesome. Is. THAT???

 

[SteveGC]

I still have no idea what you are talking about? Guan likes to post with some kind of apostolic authority, stating that his position is what the Apostles believed and taught. I simply say that is a false claim since what the Apostles actually taught is recorded in the Scriptures.

Guan only “posts with some kind of apostolic authority” because he’s Catholic, and strives to faithfully represent what the Church teaches, namely that She (The Church) retains apostolic authority for all time.

Do you think that Guan believes that what he defines as apostolic teaching is exclusively extra-biblical? It is not. He knows that the Church’s teaching is fully supported in Sacred Scripture. So, this isn’t a matter of you being able to say, “you believe in something outside of Scripture, I believe in Scripture”. No. This is a matter of your interpretation of Scripture vs. The Church’s 2000 year interpretations of Scripture, coupled with Her Sacred Tradition in full and complete harmony with Scripture.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I believe that the must sublime gift of God to us is not that he makes us his children through adoption, but that God desires to marry us. Yup. Marry us.

Through the CC we know that God has given us his flesh and through this One Flesh Union of the Eucharist, mirrored in the marital embrace between husband and wife; we are so closely united to Him as only husband and wife can be. Not merely “adopted” children…but ONE FLESH with the Eternal Godhead.

How. Awesome. Is. THAT???

Okay, you are discussing this with a Protestant sibling who adheres to sola scriptura. Please post Scripture proofs to support your view and I will follow up with my position that God’s love is measured through the doctrines of propitiation and adoption. To link this to the thread topic, how do you even know you will even be part of the bride of Christ?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Guan only “posts with some kind of apostolic authority” because he’s Catholic, and strives to faithfully represent what the Church teaches, namely that She (The Church) retains apostolic authority for all time.

Do you think that Guan believes that what he defines as apostolic teaching is exclusively extra-biblical? It is not. He knows that the Church’s teaching is fully supported in Sacred Scripture. So, this isn’t a matter of you being able to say, “you believe in something outside of Scripture, I believe in Scripture”. No. This is a matter of your interpretation of Scripture vs. The Church’s 2000 year interpretations of Scripture, coupled with Her Sacred Tradition in full and complete harmony with Scripture.

Steve,

Guan is just one of over 1 billion Catholics and I don’t even think he is part of the Catholic Priesthood. So, why is Guan’s view and interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition more correct than the next Catholic with an opposing interpretation of the Catholic Catechism? It seems to me that he speaks with Magestrium authority which seems to be reserved for the Bishop of Rome and other bishops in communion with him. If Guan is a bishop, then maybe I would consider his postings to be more authorative than the next orthodox Catholic when interperting Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Did you follow the Muslim thread with the struggling orthodox Catholic? We all know that the Catholic Catechism can be hard to understand and interpert, thefore, I bought the Companion to the Catholic Catechism too with the same seal of approval as the Catechism.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, you are discussing this with a Protestant sibling who adheres to sola scriptura. Please post Scripture proofs to support your view and I will follow up with my position that God’s love is measured through the doctrines of propitiation and adoption. To link this to the thread topic, how do you even know you will even be part of the bride of Christ?

Firstly, I would look in the Song of Songs and see the very, very strong imagery of a Lover and His Beloved.

Secondly, look in Revelation at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. Revelation is all about the Divine Liturgy.

Look up the use of the term “Bride” in Scripture in an online search and see what comes up.

More later…but that should keep you busy for awhile.

 

[SteveGC]

Steve,

Guan is just one of over 1 billion Catholics and I don’t even think he is part of the Catholic Priesthood. So, why is Guan’s view and interpretation of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition more correct than the next Catholic with an opposing interpretation of the Catholic Catechism? It seems to me that he speaks with Magestrium authority which seems to be reserved for the Bishop of Rome and other bishops in communion with him. If Guan is a bishop, then maybe I would consider his postings to be more authorative than the next orthodox Catholic when interperting Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Did you follow the Muslim thread with the struggling orthodox Catholic? We all know that the Catholic Catechism can be hard to understand and interpert, thefore, I bought the Companion to the Catholic Catechism too with the same seal of approval as the Catechism.

Take all of his posts, print them out…take them to your local parish priest, or better yet, the bishop of the diocese in your area. Have them look it over, and tell you where it does not mesh with authentic Catholic teaching, preserved for all time since Pentecost. Fr. Serpa is a priest with Catholic Answers here. Send them to him for his response to how they align with authentic teaching. I’m not saying Guan articulates it exactly as the Church would, but I don’t think there’s anything significant (regarding faith and morals) which you would find out of line with official orthodox Catholicism. And the Catechism certainly doesn’t refute what he says, does it?

 

[SteveGC]

"2nd Adam:

Okay, you are discussing this with a Protestant sibling who adheres to sola scriptura. Please post Scripture proofs to support your view and I will follow up with my position that God’s love is measured through the doctrines of propitiation and adoption. To link this to the thread topic, how do you even know you will even be part of the bride of Christ?

Firstly, I would look in the Song of Songs and see the very, very strong imagery of a Lover and His Beloved.

Secondly, look in Revelation at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. Revelation is all about the Divine Liturgy.

Look up the use of the term “Bride” in Scripture in an online search and see what comes up.

More later…but that should keep you busy for awhile.

And remember, Adam…PR didn’t say there was no adoption, he said it wasn’t limited to merely adoption.

 

[2nd_Adam]

And remember, Adam…PR didn’t say there was no adoption, he said it wasn’t limited to merely adoption.

That’s good, because Guan doesn’t see our adoption until a future event. I agree with that in one sense, but not the way I believe Guan believes. Do you see your sonship and adoption to be eternal and secure? Do you see God as your eternal Heavenly Father? The issue is about the sufficiency of Christ in regards to eternal adoption and complete and full propitiation (full atonement).

 

[2nd_Adam]

Firstly, I would look in the Song of Songs and see the very, very strong imagery of a Lover and His Beloved.

Secondly, look in Revelation at the Marriage Feast of the Lamb. Revelation is all about the Divine Liturgy.

Look up the use of the term “Bride” in Scripture in an online search and see what comes up.

More later…but that should keep you busy for awhile.

Please post the actual Scriptures, and don’t just generalize. You also need to address the question in regards to your confidence and assurance that you are truly part of the bride of Christ which is bringing this back to the thread topic of the sufficiency of Christ for your adopition and/or your place as the eternal bride of Christ.

 

[PRmerger]

Okay, you are discussing this with a Protestant sibling who adheres to sola scriptura. Please post Scripture proofs to support your view and I will follow up with my position that God’s love is measured through the doctrines of propitiation and adoption. To link this to the thread topic, how do you even know you will even be part of the bride of Christ?

More!

31
“For this reason a man shall leave (his) father and (his) mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.”
32
This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.
33
In any case, each one of you should love his wife as himself, and the wife should respect her husband. Eph 5:31-32

St. Paul uses the analogy of spousal love, referring back to Genesis:: ‘A man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh’ (Gen 2:24). This is the ‘great mystery’ of eternal love present in God’s creation.

As Pope JPII says: The ‘great mystery’, which is the Church and humanity in Christ, does not exist apart from the ‘great mystery’ expressed in the ‘one flesh’ (cf. Gen 2:24; Eph 5:31-32), that is, in the reality of marriage and the family."