The sufficiency of Christ

[fhansen]

Be more specific sister. I don’t believe the Magisterium acknowledges baptisms done within Mormonism. Who else does the Magisterium accept beyond Protestants, Anglicans, Orthodox and other Christians who adhere to the historic creeds of orthodoxy?

I would say you’re right on this. The CC has never reconciled Mormon theology with her own, although, as with other religions, she would applaud any beliefs that are right and true within that faith. The best place to find the Catholic position towards our “separated brethern” is from Vat IIs DECREE ON ECUMENISM: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

 

[Shannon9791]

As I study the Catholic view of Sacred Scripture together with Sacred Tradition with the Magesterium, I find that Sacred Scripture is considered supreme revelation as compared to Sacred Tradition. Just go to the Catholic Catehcism. Even with the Church Fathers, you will have problems trying to reconcile the various writings of early Church Fathers with each other as well as the Catholic Faith. Heck, I can point you to Reformed sites who actually post the entire works of the Early Church Fathers and actually uses their writings in defense of Reformed Theology.

Just want to point out to you that it has been told to you numerous times that Sacred Scripture is not “supreme” to Sacred Tradition. They share an equal footing with regards to how the Church views them.

 

[2nd_Adam]

“Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.
When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People, “the first to hear the Word of God.” The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

“Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.” Source here.

**Outside the Church there is no salvation. **

IMO… These ecumenical sections of the Catholic Catechism about non-Christian religions have caused so much confusion among Catholics, causing many to lose site of the gospel of God and the necessity of faith in Jesus Christ. This kind of view is one of the most grieving things to me to hear about as your sibling in Christ.

 

[izoid]

As I study the Catholic view of Sacred Scripture together with Sacred Tradition with the Magesterium, I find that Sacred Scripture is considered supreme revelation as compared to Sacred Tradition. Just go to the Catholic Catehcism. Even with the Church Fathers, you will have problems trying to reconcile the various writings of early Church Fathers with each other as well as the Catholic Faith. Heck, I can point you to Reformed sites who actually post the entire works of the Early Church Fathers and actually uses their writings in defense of Reformed Theology.

Instead of making these false allegations can yoou please post the references?

 

[izoid]

As I study the Catholic view of Sacred Scripture together with Sacred Tradition with the Magesterium, I find that Sacred Scripture is considered supreme revelation as compared to Sacred Tradition. Just go to the Catholic Catehcism. Even with the Church Fathers, you will have problems trying to reconcile the various writings of early Church Fathers with each other as well as the Catholic Faith. Heck, I can point you to Reformed sites who actually post the entire works of the Early Church Fathers and actually uses their writings in defense of Reformed Theology.

These Reformed sites no doubt take the writings out of context…much like your signature.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Instead of making these false allegations can yoou please post the references?

reformed.org/documents/index.html

In addition, you can go to monergism.com and find works posted with Early Church Fathers used to support Reformed Theology. I think you can find them through a general search on that site.

 

[fhansen]

As I study the Catholic view of Sacred Scripture together with Sacred Tradition with the Magesterium, I find that Sacred Scripture is considered supreme revelation as compared to Sacred Tradition. Just go to the Catholic Catehcism. Even with the Church Fathers, you will have problems trying to reconcile the various writings of early Church Fathers with each other as well as the Catholic Faith. Heck, I can point you to Reformed sites who actually post the entire works of the Early Church Fathers and actually uses their writings in defense of Reformed Theology.

The truth is that the Church holds them up as equals and recognizes that both need to be understood in light of her own living history and the guidance of the HS she’s been guaranteed. The inherent ambiguity in Scripture and other written works including the ECFs is why we cannot ascertain the full truth without this charism.

 

[2nd_Adam]

These Reformed sites no doubt take the writings out of context…much like your signature.

That’s a matter of perspective and opinion. For the Catholic Church to claim that her teaching is apostolic, why do see guys want to go beyond the writings of the Apostles?

 

[2nd_Adam]

The truth is that the Church holds them up as equals and recognizes that both need to be understood in light of her own living history and the guidance of the HS she’s been guaranteed. The inherent ambiguity in Scripture and other written works including the ECFs is why we cannot ascertain the full truth without this charism.

That’s not true. Sacred Scripture is valued as being higher revelation that Sacred Tradition. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed like the Scirptures? Go to the Catholic Catechism and look up Sacred Scripture then look at Sacred Tradition.

 

[izoid]

That’s a matter of perspective and opinion. For the Catholic Church to claim that her teaching is apostolic, why do see guys want to go beyond the writings of the Apostles?

Do you mean these writtings of the apostles?

2 Thess. 2:15
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

2 Thess. 3:6
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

1 Cor. 11:2
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

 

[PRmerger]

That’s not true. Sacred Scripture is valued as being higher revelation that Sacred Tradition. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed like the Scirptures? Go to the Catholic Catechism and look up Sacred Scripture then look at Sacred Tradition.

sigh

Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." CCC 82

That’s what I found when I went “to the Catholic Catechism and look up Sacred Scripture then look at Sacred Tradition.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

Do you mean these writtings of the apostles?

2 Thess. 2:15
15So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

2 Thess. 3:6
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from every brother who leads an unruly life and not according to the tradition which you received from us.

1 Cor. 11:2
2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. - Colossians 2:8

There are two types of traditions. Apostolic tradtion as defined by the Apostles has been recorded in Sacred Scripture and is to be received by Christians. It’s interestng that you quoted the Apostle Paul three times, yet Catholics seem to avoid the Epistles of Paul like a plague.

 

[Shannon9791]

That’s not true. Sacred Scripture is valued as being higher revelation that Sacred Tradition. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed like the Scirptures? Go to the Catholic Catechism and look up Sacred Scripture then look at Sacred Tradition.

From the Catechism:

"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age."41

Where do you get your information? I think you just make things up to tick us off.

 

[2nd_Adam]

From the Catechism:

"Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age."41

Where do you get your information? I think you just make things up to tick us off.

I’m not talking about the summary statement, I am taking about the entire sections under Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Please try again.

 

[2nd_Adam]

sigh

Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." CCC 82

That’s what I found when I went “to the Catholic Catechism and look up Sacred Scripture then look at Sacred Tradition.”

In your zeal for the defense of the Catholic Faith, I think you guys so bring this up with a Catholic Answers apologist. Sacred Scripture is God-breathed and I do not believe you would say that Sacred Tradition is God-breathed.

 

[fhansen]

That’s not true. Sacred Scripture is valued as being higher revelation that Sacred Tradition. Does the Catholic Church consider Sacred Tradition to be God-breathed like the Scirptures? Go to the Catholic Catechism and look up Sacred Scripture then look at Sacred Tradition.

Both are essential. Neither can be dispensed with.

**80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44 **

**97 “Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture make up a single sacred deposit of the Word of God” (DV 10) in which, as in a mirror, the pilgrim Church contemplates God, the source of all her riches. **

 

[izoid]

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. - Colossians 2:8

There are two types of traditions. **Apostolic tradtion as defined by the Apostles has been recorded in Sacred Scripture **and is to be received by Christians. It’s interestng that you quoted the Apostle Paul three times, yet Catholics seem to avoid the Epistles of Paul like a plague.

Can you show me the scripture that states that belief?

If what you say is true why would Paul state, “whether by word of mouth or by letter from us”.

His use of the word or would indicate that your understanding is incorrect.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Here is the section on Sacred Scripture according to the Catechism. Now compare it with the Sacred Tradition section.

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a3.htm

 

[2nd_Adam]

Can you show me the scripture that states that belief?

If what you say is true why would Paul state, “whether by word of mouth or by letter from us”.

His use of the word or would indicate that your understanding is incorrect.

Because the Apostles were living at the time that he wrote the letter. Now, who’s the us but the Apostles themselves. I’m all for the Apostolic Christian Faith according to the Apostles.

 

[izoid]

I am at work right now and don’t have my study tools available but I am sure you know this one Adam, help me out.

Who is it that praises the early believers for accepting his words as not from man but as from God?