The sufficiency of Christ

[crazzeto]

Both Catholics and Protestants agree that we are being made righteous by God. It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to make us into the image of Christ. It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit uses the Catholic Church through sacraments and other ways in this process. The Protestant could say that the Holy Spirit is using prayer, Scripture, and the sacraments as are primary means of grace that the Spirit uses to transforms us into the image of Christ. However, how we see things differently is our position on how we are reconciled to God and adopted into the family of God. We have peace with God and adopted into the family of God on the sole basis of the righteousness of another. I believe Luther called this an alien righteousness because it is a righteousness apart from our own personal righetousness as we grow in Christ.

So I’m curious (again), do you beleive you must be repentant in order to make it to heaven?

 

[2nd_Adam]

So I’m curious (again), do you beleive you must be repentant in order to make it to heaven?

Repentance and faith are necessary. However, does repentance and faith come from within us, or does it ultimately come from God?

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” - Acts 11:18

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth - 2 Timothy 2:25

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Philippians 1:29

 

[benidict]

Mormons and Catholics get along fine. It is the Protestants who don’t get along with anybody, Catholics or Mormons alike.

lol! yes i do get along very nicely with mormons. no doubt about it. they do have a beautiful temple complex here on oahu. if any of you fine folks make it out here, visit it if you get the chance. hopefully you will come when it is done with reconstruction. im kinda upset tho. they usually allow the public in for an open house, when they are done with this sort of thing. but the time it is due for completion, is the time i will be leaving on deployment.

 

[benidict]

Let’s blame it on Benidict. While he’s laying on the beach in Hawaii, we are waiting for guanaphore to kick my bottom before I spill the beans. Guanaphore already responded on another thread that I posted about the sufficiency of Christ, and he responded that Jesus is all sufficent for Catholics too. So, let’s wait and see what he means by the sufficiency of Christ.

ok 2nd im back from the beach. very restful too. went to sandy beach on the south side of the island and fell asleep to the rumble of the waves. have not had time to get thru all the post yet. has everybody been nice to eachother in my absence, and have you answered dancelittleewoks questions? as well as the others? will be able to do more tomorrow with this. got to go to bed. pt comes early in the morning. worst part of the army. lol!

 

[benidict]

Z and Adam, please stop.

This isn’t productive and is bound to lock down this thread faster than you both can say “charity.”

puts Z in one corner and Adam in the other

Take a breath and repeat after me:

“Love one another as I’ve loved you”

P.S. I’ll be busy tonight and probably won’t be on until much later or the morning.

hi dancelittleewok. i guess this answeres my question. nope, they werent nice to eachother at all… lol! will have to go thru the post tomorrow, and see what happened. oh well. hope it didnt get too nasty. God bless you and yours.

 

[zerinus]

Repentance and faith are necessary. However, does repentance and faith come from within us, or does it ultimately come from God?

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” - Acts 11:18

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth - 2 Timothy 2:25

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Philippians 1:29

To which the answer has already been given in this post.

Like I said, he believes that the exercise of your volition is not a determining factor on whether you are saved or damned. God makes all the decisions, including the decision whether you repent or not. You have no choice in what happens to you. All of those exhortations by God, Jesus Christ, and His prophets and Apostles since the world began that you should repent and do good, and work righteousness, are a bunch of lies and a cruel deception. You basically do nothing. You let God do what He wants, and watch what happens to you. If He wants you to repent, you will repent; and if He wants you damn yourself, you will damn yourself. That is the teaching of Protestantism.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Repentance and faith are necessary. However, does repentance and faith come from within us, or does it ultimately come from God?

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” - Acts 11:18

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth - 2 Timothy 2:25

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Philippians 1:29

Since you’ve responded in kind to my post, I’m going to re-read that link and comment on it.

One quick question: Do you believe that Jesus plus something equals nothing and Jesus plus nothing equals everything?

 

[crazzeto]

Repentance and faith are necessary. However, does repentance and faith come from within us, or does it ultimately come from God?

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” - Acts 11:18

And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth - 2 Timothy 2:25

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake - Philippians 1:29

that’s interesting, so you accept saved by Grace alone, with the necessary response of faith and works. But now you feel like God is puppeting all of it? But does that really make sense? Why would it all be puppeted by God? Why bother having a necesary response at all? Again, could you answer my questions about Judas which you hadn’t answered as of last night (I admit I haven’t stopped by apologetics yet this am).

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Adam, before I even get into the content of the actual link, I’m wondering if your beliefs are the same as Frontline Ministries. After I read the article (which I will respond to when the time is right), I explored the rest of this site and found some disheartening things about how this ministry views Catholics:

By clicking the “cult” heading, I found this abridged chart of religious groups in America in which Roman Catholicism is described as “mixes roman paganism with Christianity. Some need to be convinced of this assertion is research roman paganism and see the connections yourself.” The site then recommends a book called “Papal Paganism” to do so.

Still under the cult heading, there’s an article called “How to identify a cult.” Apparently, anything that uses “extra biblical” resources is clearly posing as “Christian” and “abusive.” The article then goes into the mathematics of a cult and then spiritual abuse.

Finally, under the heading of “Roman Catholicism” There are lessons about church history, the Decree on Ecumenism, and how to witness to a Catholic with another article about sharing the Gospel with Catholics.

Reading all this gives me great pause about how you view Catholics and your intentions. Please respond to the above question.

 

[2nd_Adam]

ok 2nd im back from the beach. very restful too. went to sandy beach on the south side of the island and fell asleep to the rumble of the waves. have not had time to get thru all the post yet. has everybody been nice to eachother in my absence, and have you answered dancelittleewoks questions? as well as the others? will be able to do more tomorrow with this. got to go to bed. pt comes early in the morning. worst part of the army. lol!

Hey Bro,

It seemed you had a nice time at the beach yesterday. Enjoy your time being stationed in Hawaii. I never visited the temple in Hawaii, but I have been to the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City and took the tour too. Anyways, let’s get back to the thread topic because there appears to be so many distractions. Here’s spilling the beans post again because I think your big brother Guanophore will not be participating on this topic.

Okay, it appears Guanophore does not want to participate on this thread. He posted on the gospel thread last night, addressing me on that thread, and I sent him several pm in regards to this thread. He is welcome to join us when he wants to. So, let’s move on.

Here is a summary of the New Testament wonderful amazing great good news of God:

Adoption through Propitiation

http://therivertoledo.org/Images/cross_sunrise.jpg

It is because of Christ’s perfect and sufficient righteousness, that God’s love in manifested in two ways, through propitiation and adoption. In Protestant theology, adoption through propitiation is based on the sufficiency of Christ’s righteousness alone. In Catholic theology, I don’t believe that is true.

 

[2nd_Adam]

To which the answer has already been given in this post.

Like I said, he believes that the exercise of your volition is not a determining factor on whether you are saved or damned. God makes all the decisions, including the decision whether you repent or not. You have no choice in what happens to you. All of those exhortations by God, Jesus Christ, and His prophets and Apostles since the world began that you should repent and do good, and work righteousness, are a bunch of lies and a cruel deception. You basically do nothing. You let God do what He wants, and watch what happens to you. If He wants you to repent, you will repent; and if He wants you damn yourself, you will damn yourself. That is the teaching of Protestantism.

I hope everyone understands that I will be ignoring Zerinus and wish him well. This passage applies to all who knows Jesus as Lord.

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - Apostle Paul

 

[2nd_Adam]

Since you’ve responded in kind to my post, I’m going to re-read that link and comment on it.

One quick question: Do you believe that Jesus plus something equals nothing and Jesus plus nothing equals everything?

I think in a way, both Protestants and Catholics understand that the Christian life is by grace alone. I see that all the grace of God flows from the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. I think the Catholic Faith would probably agree with my statement.

 

[2nd_Adam]

that’s interesting, so you accept saved by Grace alone, with the necessary response of faith and works. But now you feel like God is puppeting all of it? But does that really make sense? Why would it all be puppeted by God? Why bother having a necesary response at all? Again, could you answer my questions about Judas which you hadn’t answered as of last night (I admit I haven’t stopped by apologetics yet this am).

I’m trying real hard to guide this thread back to the OP of “The sufficiency of Christ”. This is not about TULIP or Predestination. Therefore, I think your questions are not related to the thread topic so it makes sense not to answer them at this point. I hope you understand.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Adam, before I even get into the content of the actual link, I’m wondering if your beliefs are the same as Frontline Ministries. After I read the article (which I will respond to when the time is right), I explored the rest of this site and found some disheartening things about how this ministry views Catholics:

By clicking the “cult” heading, I found this abridged chart of religious groups in America in which Roman Catholicism is described as “mixes roman paganism with Christianity. Some need to be convinced of this assertion is research roman paganism and see the connections yourself.” The site then recommends a book called “Papal Paganism” to do so.

Still under the cult heading, there’s an article called “How to identify a cult.” Apparently, anything that uses “extra biblical” resources is clearly posing as “Christian” and “abusive.” The article then goes into the mathematics of a cult and then spiritual abuse.

Finally, under the heading of “Roman Catholicism” There are lessons about church history, the Decree on Ecumenism, and how to witness to a Catholic with another article about sharing the Gospel with Catholics.

Reading all this gives me great pause about how you view Catholics and your intentions. Please respond to the above question.

I don’t need to click on those links to say that they do not represent my views about the Catholic Faith. Actually, I believe the orthodox Catholic Faith is very good. I do have issues of what I hear from Cafeteria Catholics which is no different from hearing views from liberal and immature Protestants. We share many of the same truths and sources as orthodox Christians. We are siblings in Christ. Much of what I have read and learned about official Catholic theology is very good stuff! Please notice that I have two Catholic links on my signature which teaches the Catholic position of justification by faith. It should be received by all Christians. When I am searching for papers on propitiation, I am doing a general search on Monergism.com which is a source of various Reformed materials. Within the Reformed Faith, you have different views about the Catholic Faith. I am an ecumenical Reformed Christian with a view of ECT. I did read the Forum rules about posting a link that supports the thread topic which comes from a ministry that is offensive to Catholic Christians. I’f you want me to find another article on propitation, I can do that later this evening.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I don’t need to click on those links to say that they do not represent my views about the Catholic Faith. Actually, I believe the orthodox Catholic Faith is very good. I do have issues of what I hear from Cafeteria Catholics which is no different from hearing views from liberal and immature Protestants. We share many of the same truths and sources as orthodox Christians. We are siblings in Christ. Much of what I have read and learned about official Catholic theology is very good stuff! Please notice that I have two Catholic links on my signature which teaches the Catholic position of justification by faith. It should be received by all Christians.

But you believe it somewhat insufficient or lower in regards to the Protestant view to the sufficiency of Christ, why?

 

[2nd_Adam]

But you believe it somewhat insufficient or lower in regards to the Protestant view to the sufficiency of Christ, why?

Did you see my reposting for Benidict on your question above? Please read post 149. I will be gone most of the day and will recheck this thread sometime this evening.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Did you see my reposting for Benidict on your question above? Please read post 149. I will be gone most of the day and will recheck this thread sometime this evening.

I did and in regards to that, I’m not understanding, “In regards to Catholic theology, I don’t believe it is true.” Hence my question if you think that Catholic theology is insufficient (or “lower” in your words in the OP) in regards to Christ’s sufficiency. Do you now understand why I asked my question?

I’m fine using that link if that’s what you believe about propitiation and will get back to you on it.

 

[SteveGC]

2nd Adam,

When you get a chance, could you please give us a thorough description of your understanding of “free will”? Or atleast point us to a link which adequately defines your view of it.

I believe it’s quite relevant to your thread here, as it will allow us to explore what man’s role in salvation is (or is not), and hence clarify more about what the all-sufficiency of Christ means.

Thanks.

 

[fhansen]

Okay, would it be accurate to say that John Newton’s view would have a much higher view of the sufficiency of Christ than the Catholic view, why or why not? This is not a trap question, but more of a theological question on the work of Christ in regards to the sufficiency of Christ for sinners.

I guess, depending on his theology, he may’ve thought he was saved from the moment he first believed. But, then again, later on he thought he wasn’t truly converted until after he gave up the slave-trade-which brings up the point that for Catholics, the concept of salvation doesn’t mean much either unless it’s accompanied by or backed up with abiding in the Spirit.

 

[crazzeto]

I’m trying real hard to guide this thread back to the OP of “The sufficiency of Christ”. This is not about TULIP or Predestination. Therefore, I think your questions are not related to the thread topic so it makes sense not to answer them at this point. I hope you understand.

Ok well, if the whole point of your thread is “the grace of god is what saves you” then I don’t see why you bothered posting it. Catholics don’t disagree.