The sufficiency of Christ

[2nd_Adam]

He believes it was all predestined! That is what all of them believe in.

It’s interesting how you continue to misrepresent Protestants after I requested several times to stop such ungodly behavior. You are only validating what I believe about Mormons.

 

[zerinus]

Adam and Eve definitely had free will to obey the command of God, unlike ourselves. Therefore, Adam and Eve had a choice and ability to obey and please God on their own.

So what happened to God’s sovereignty and sufficiency then?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You don’t think unbelief is a sin? If Christ didn’t pay for the sins of the whole world, God would be unjust.

Unbelief is the true mortal sin in the Bible.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Adam and Eve definitely had free will to obey the command of God, unlike ourselves. Therefore, Adam and Eve had a choice and ability to obey and please God on their own. We are born with a will that is in bondage to our fallen nature, choosing freely what we desire which is not Christ, but rather we choose sin, rebellion, and death. That is why Christ came, to save us from the penalty of sin, and to free us from our sin nature, changing our wills from the inclination of sin to the inclination of righteousness. All mankind has a choice to come to Christ, but by his own fallen nature, nobody comes to Christ. I think that statement can be embraced by Catholics within the Catholic Faith. After-all, we both embrace Augustine in reagards to original sin and are inability to choose God on own power without the help of God.

If that is your position, then free will and predestination can be mixed in beginning with Adam and Eve; then your position denies its own theology.

 

[2nd_Adam]

MORMON. So what happened to God’s sovereignty and sufficiency then?

As a reminder to all, I freely choose to ignore Zerinus according to my own free will, obeying our Triune God.

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. - Titus 3

Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will. - 2 Tim

 

[2nd_Adam]

Quick question: Do you believe that Adam had a choice in Original Sin or was it all predestined by God for His glory? I suspect the former but yes, this is very relevant to the debate.

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Adam and Eve definitely had free will to obey the command of God, unlike ourselves. Therefore, Adam and Eve had a choice and ability to obey and please God on their own. We are born with a will that is in bondage to our fallen nature, choosing freely what we desire which is not Christ, but rather we choose sin, rebellion, and death. That is why Christ came, to save us from the penalty of sin, and to free us from our sin nature, changing our wills from the inclination of sin to the inclination of righteousness. All mankind has a choice to come to Christ, but by his own fallen nature, nobody comes to Christ. I think that statement can be embraced by Catholics within the Catholic Faith. After-all, we both embrace Augustine in reagards to original sin and are inability to choose God on own power without the help of God

If that is your position, then free will and predestination can be mixed in beginning with Adam and Eve; then your position denies its own theology.

This is and has been the Reformed position. We have to go by Scripture revelation and not human reasoning. God created Adam and Eve, and He declared what He created as good. You have to be careful in this area since Augustine battled Pelagius in these very issues. The Catholic Church declared Pelagius to be a heretic. Therefore, my views are probably more Catholic than yours in regards to these issues.

Adam and Eve prior to the Fall

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. - Genesis 1

Mankind after the Fall

When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth. - Genesis 5:3

 

[Love_is_Patient]

Soli Deo Gloria

When you think about it and simplify our differences… Protestants believe that our justification and adoption through propitiation is based on the righteousness of Christ alone. It is never based on our personal righteousness that is gained through the cooperation of the grace of God. Therefore as a Catholic, you are not justified, or your sins are not paid in full, or you are not adopted in the family of God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness alone. It appears your salvation and final destination is truly a cooperation between God and man, making a shared glory between God and man. If you are familiar with the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, Catholic Theology is unable to proclaim Glory to God alone (Soli Deo Gloria) in your salvation. If man’s chief aim in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, then a view which give God all the glory of salvation is the correct view… one in which Christ is sufficient for our full atonement and adoption into the family of God which cannot be revoked. In human terms, can you imagine a family adopting a child and later in life revoking and undoing the adoption based on something the child did. Most people would consider that to be a terrible act by parents who revoked an adoption of a child later in life. How can a Holy and perfectly moral and loving God undo an adoption which was based on the perfect righteousness of Christ? How sufficient is Christ for you?

You have scolded Zerinus multiple times for trying to explain what Calvinist Protestants believe and accused him of trying to deceive the Catholics, engaging in “ungodly behavior” and “validating what [you] believe about Mormons.”

How about you take your own advice and remove the log from your own eye?

If you truly want to dialogue with us, ASK us what we believe. Don’t tell us. Especially because posts like the one above reveal that you don’t know what you are talking about.

You have claimed that you think Catholics are your siblings in Christ. I’d like to believe you mean that. If you do, please consider accepting some fraternal correction here: apologize for your ignorance and ASK us what we believe and why.

Thank you for your patience and consideration. May God bless you on your search for the truth.

Love is Patient

 

[Dancelittleewok]

This is and has been the Reformed position. We have to go by Scripture revelation and not human reasoning. God created Adam and Eve, and He declared what He created as good. You have to be careful in this area since Augustine battled Pelagius in these very issues. The Catholic Church declared Pelagius to be a heretic. Therefore, my views are probably more Catholic than yours in regards to these issues.

Adam and Eve prior to the Fall

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. - Genesis 1

You’ve mentioned Augustine many times but have not yet seen proof that he is a “Calvinistic hybrid” or any that he put predestination vs. free will.

Did I say that Christ’s creation isn’t good? If anything these scripture passages debunk total depravity. If Adam and Eve can freely choose to turn their backs upon God, it is logical (and scriptural) to believe mankind can do so now. Yes, mankind cannot save Himself but the issue here if he can cooperate with God’s grace. I, am by NO means, denying original sin or Christian grace (as they are properly understood through the Church) as did Pelagius. Furthermore, there is nothing in post to suggest that I believe the same.

If Adam and Eve can freely choose their backs on God in the garden, why can’t human beings now? If God can grant Adam and Eve free will to choose Him and still reign Sovereign, why not now?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You have scolded Zerinus multiple times for trying to explain what Calvinist Protestants believe and accused him of trying to deceive the Catholics, engaging in “ungodly behavior” and “validating what [you] believe about Mormons.”

How about you take your own advice and remove the log from your own eye?

If you truly want to dialogue with us, ASK us what we believe. Don’t tell us. Especially because posts like the one above reveal that you don’t know what you are talking about.

You have claimed that you think Catholics are your siblings in Christ. I’d like to believe you mean that. If you do, please consider accepting some fraternal correction here: apologize for your ignorance and ASK us what we believe and why.

Thank you for your patience and consideration. May God bless you on your search for the truth.

Love is Patient

It’s very difficult sister since there are so many Cafeteria Catholics mixed in with orthodox Catholics. Therefore, I have to discern if a Catholic poster is in line with the Catholic Church in theology, or outside of the Catholic Faith. I find that many of the posts by Catholics actually line up with Pelagius in comparison to the Bishop of Hippo (Augustine).



In regards to Zerinus, he is a Mormon with a clear Mormon agenda. He is not part of a family discussion and is outside the circle of the body of Christ. Therefore, Zerinus’ postings have to read within the context of a Mormon agenda.

 

[Cr8ton]

Adam and Eve definitely had free will to obey the command of God, unlike ourselves. Therefore, Adam and Eve had a choice and ability to obey and please God on their own. We are born with a will that is in bondage to our fallen nature, choosing freely what we desire which is not Christ, but rather we choose sin, rebellion, and death. That is why Christ came, to save us from the penalty of sin, and to free us from our sin nature, changing our wills from the inclination of sin to the inclination of righteousness. All mankind has a choice to come to Christ, but by his own fallen nature, nobody comes to Christ. I think that statement can be embraced by Catholics within the Catholic Faith. After-all, we both embrace Augustine in reagards to original sin and are inability to choose God on own power without the help of God.

This would take us to the next step:

If Christ came to change our wills from the inclination of sin to the inclination of righteousness. Does the Bible, taken in context with all scriptures concerning the matter, validate the view that Christ has changed ALL humans wills or ONLY “The Elect’s”.

whichever view you take…it then comes to this next issue

I believe after one’s will has been changed to the inclination of righteousness, it then is a cooperation (synergistic) of man with the Holy Spirit to further the work of sanctification. (this is a separate issue than justification, where justification is brought through the faith in Christ that saves us [which again, the faith that is made possible only by God’s grace and will to work within an individual *monergistic]) Although wouldn’t it also be true according to scripture that our faith, if it be the justifying faith as opposed to the devilish-faith that even the demons have but yet tremble, would cause us to continue to desire God passionately and desiring to be conformed more to Jesus Christ resulting in bringing Him the glory as our chief objective? Which I would agree being most satisfied in God results in God being most glorified in us.

I’m open to any disagreements and scriptural references to show me where I am mistaken, if that be the case.

 

[fhansen]

Unbelief is the true mortal sin in the Bible.

Sorry, I misunderstood you there.

 

[zerinus]

As a reminder to all, I freely choose to ignore Zerinus according to my own free will, obeying our Triune God.

LOL! Are you sure? You haven’t been very good at sticking with it so far. Maybe your predestination is stronger than your freewill!

Here is a quote from John Calvin on predestination:

By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death. (John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion II, 21, 5.)

It doesn’t leave any room for exceptions. Why should Adam be an exception?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

St. Augustine of Hippo:

He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.

–St. Augustine, Sermo 169, 11, 13: PL 38, 923.

 

[2nd_Adam]

You’ve mentioned Augustine many times but have not yet seen proof that he is a “Calvinistic hybrid” or any that he put predestination vs. free will.

Did I say that Christ’s creation isn’t good? If anything these scripture passages debunk total depravity. If Adam and Eve can freely choose to turn their backs upon God, it is logical (and scriptural) to believe mankind can do so now. Yes, mankind cannot save Himself but the issue here if he can cooperate with God’s grace. I, am by NO means, denying original sin or Christian grace (as they are properly understood through the Church) as did Pelagius. Furthermore, there is nothing in post to suggest that I believe the same.

If Adam and Eve can freely choose their backs on God in the garden, why can’t human beings now? If God can grant Adam and Eve free will to choose Him and still reign Sovereign, why not now?

I actually said Augustine was a Catholic Calvinist hybrid. Paul was the original Calvinist. I know everyone wants to really discuss TULIP. I hope someone would start another TULIP thread in the non-catholic religion section and I will discuss these issues on that thread. However, the sufficiency of Christ is not about TULIP. There are many many non-Calvinist Protestants who believe in the sufficiency of Christ like I do. The sufficiency of Christ is really about the heart of the gospel of God: ADOPTION THROUGH PROPITIATON. :grouphug::hug1: (the designated Catholic and Protestants together icon!)

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I actually said Augustine was a Catholic Calvinist hybrid. Paul was the original Calvinist. I know everyone wants to really discuss TULIP. I hope someone starts another TULIP thread in the non-catholic religion section and I will discuss these issues on that thread. However, the sufficiency of Christ is not about TULIP. There are many many non-Calvinist Protestants who believe in the sufficiency of Christ like I do. The sufficiency of Christ is really about the heart of the gospel of God: ADOPTION THROUGH PROPITIATON. :grouphug::hug1:

As I said before, one cannot remove its theology by discussing this issue. Calvinism/TULIP aren’t off base but on base. Simply, how one’s “view” of the propitiation is entirely colored by one’s theology–this should be self-evident since you said as such in the OP.

Now will you answer my questions about Adam and Eve…

 

[2nd_Adam]

As I said before, one cannot remove its theology by discussing this issue. Calvinism/TULIP aren’t off base but on base. Simply, how one’s “view” of the propitiation is entirely colored by one’s theology–this should be self-evident since you said as such in the OP.

Now will you answer my questions about Adam and Eve…

Armininan Protestant Christians believe more like you do in regards to the issues of TULIP. However, in regards to the sufficiency of Christ, Arminian Protestants believe more like I do. :slapfight::hug1:

 

[Love_is_Patient]

It’s very difficult sister since there are so many Cafeteria Catholics mixed in with orthodox Catholics. Therefore, I have to discern if a Catholic poster is in line with the Catholic Church in theology, or outside of the Catholic Faith. I find that many of the posts by Catholics actually line up with Pelagius in comparison to the Bishop of Hippo (Augustine).

In regards to Zerinus, he is a Mormon with a clear Mormon agenda. He is not part of a family discussion and is outside the circle of the body of Christ. Therefore, Zerinus’ postings have to read within the context of a Mormon agenda.

Oh. I see. You’re not interested in dialogue, don’t understand Catholic teaching and are happy to continue to misrepresent us as Pelagians. Nor are you willing to admit your ignorance or apologize for misrepresenting Catholic teaching. Good to know.

Do you think this attitude is a great witness to Calvinism? Really? Moreover, do you think your attitude would attract a single Mormon to Calvinism?

I don’t.

We would be happy to answer your questions about Catholicism. We’re not so happy to be dealing with your misrepresentations that your refuse to acknowledge as ignorant.

Take the log out of your own eye before going after the speck in your neighbor’s (Zerinus). And yeah, he’s still your neighbor, even if he’s Mormon.

---

Zerinus, I apologize on behalf of 2nd for his attitude toward you. Forgive him, for he knows not what he does.

Love is Patient

 

[2nd_Adam]

Now will you answer my questions about Adam and Eve…

I think I already answered your questions about Adam and Eve. Please go back a few posts and see it they are answered to what you were looking for. If not please let me know what specifically you wanted clarified.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Armininan Protestant Christians believe more like you do in regards to the issues of TULIP. However, in regards to the sufficiency of Christ, Arminian Protestants believe more like I do. :slapfight::hug1:

First I’m a Pelagian and now a Arminian…what will it be next?

Regardless, you’ve not answered my questions about your own professed theology.

 

[2nd_Adam]

St. Augustine of Hippo:

He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.

“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine