The sufficiency of Christ

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2nd_Adam said:
I think I already answered your questions about Adam and Eve. Please go back a few posts and see it they are answered to what you were looking for. If not please let me know what specifically you wanted clarified.
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If Adam and Eve could turn their backs to God in the garden, why not now? If Adam and Eve had free will to choose God and Gods’ sovereignty wasn’t threatened, why not now?
 
Dancelittleewok said:
First I’m a Pelagian and now a Arminian…what will it be next?

Regardless, you’ve not answered my questions about your own professed theology.
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I’m sorry, I never intended to call you a Pelagian and Arminians are Protestants. Maybe your are a semi-pelagian… said with affection within the family of God. :hug1::slapfight::hug1:
 
2nd_Adam said:
I’m sorry, I never intended to call you a Pelagian and Arminians are Protestants. Maybe your are a semi-pelagian… said with affection within the family of God. :hug1::slapfight::hug1:
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Or maybe you resorted to name calling and not answering…
 
Cr8ton said:
This would take us to the next step:

If Christ came to change our wills from the inclination of sin to the inclination of righteousness. Does the Bible, taken in context with all scriptures concerning the matter, validate the view that Christ has changed ALL humans wills or ONLY “The Elect’s”.

whichever view you take…it then comes to this next issue

I believe after one’s will has been changed to the inclination of righteousness, it then is a cooperation (synergistic) of man with the Holy Spirit to further the work of sanctification. (this is a separate issue than justification, where justification is brought through the faith in Christ that saves us [which again, the faith that is made possible only by God’s grace and will to work within an individual *monergistic
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]) Although wouldn’t it also be true according to scripture that our faith, if it be the justifying faith as opposed to the devilish-faith that even the demons have but yet tremble, would cause us to continue to desire God passionately and desiring to be conformed more to Jesus Christ resulting in bringing Him the glory as our chief objective? Which I would agree being most satisfied in God results in God being most glorified in us. 🙂

I’m open to any disagreements and scriptural references to show me where I am mistaken, if that be the case.

Our dear brother Cr8ton has wonderful insights and wisdom to share. Please converse with him with gentleness and respect.
 
Love_is_Patient said:
Take the log out of your own eye before going after the speck in your neighbor’s (Zerinus). And yeah, he’s still your neighbor, even if he’s Mormon.
Zerinus, I apologize on behalf of 2nd for his attitude toward you. Forgive him, for he knows not what he does.

❤️ Love is Patient
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I try to speak the truth in love imperfectly with my dear Mormon neighbors for their sake alone. I want them to be united to Christ and worship our great Triune God. 🙂

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Apostle Paul
 
2nd_Adam said:
I try to speak the truth in love imperfectly with my dear Mormon neighbors for their sake alone. I want them to be united to Christ and worship our great Triune God. 🙂

For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Apostle Paul
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Amen my dear brother in Christ.:clapping:
 
Dancelittleewok said:
Or maybe you resorted to name calling and not answering…
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I really don’t understand what I have not answered in regards to the thread topic. I’m sorry if I have offended you. As a token of my apology, I will start a Calvinism thread for you.
 
2nd_Adam said:
I really don’t understand what I have not answered in regards to the thread topic. I’m sorry if I have offended you. As a token of my apology, I will start a Calvinism thread for you.
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What I would like to see is a thread devoted to answered prayers. Do Catholics believe that since they have the true religion why does God answer all prayers?

Off topic I know:blush:
 
2nd_Adam said:
I really don’t understand what I have not answered in regards to the thread topic. I’m sorry if I have offended you. As a token of my apology, I will start a Calvinism thread for you.
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I’ve read your post wherein you’ve quoted Genesis…that Seth was made in “his [Adam’s] image” which doesn’t say anything about free will or why you assume “in his image” means that he’s totally depraved.

What would truly make it up to me is if you’d answer the questions in post 220. You know I do have more…
 
Dancelittleewok said:
St. Augustine of Hippo:
He who created us without our help will not save us without our consent.
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2nd_Adam said:
“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine
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It’s not either/or- it’s both/and. This is why Trent references these two verses:

Therefore tell the people: This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty. Zec 1:3

This speaks of mans free will in turning to God.

Restore us to yourself, O LORD, that we may return; renew our days as of old. Lam 5:21

This speaks of Gods grace in causing man to turn back to God.
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Dancelittleewok said:
I’ve read your post wherein you’ve quoted Genesis…that Seth was made in “his [Adam’s] image” which doesn’t say anything about free will or why you assume “in his image” means that he’s totally depraved.

What would truly make it up to me is if you’d answer the questions in post 220. You know I do have more…
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Sure, but could you please move the question to the Calvinism thread?
 
Dancelittleewok said:
I’ve read your post wherein you’ve quoted Genesis…that Seth was made in “his [Adam’s] image” which doesn’t say anything about free will or why you assume “in his image” means that he’s totally depraved.

What would truly make it up to me is if you’d answer the questions in post 220. You know I do have more…
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That’s the trouble, he doesn’t answer questions or at least ones that Calvinism is ill-equipped to answer. I’ve posed many already that he simply has no answer for, or at the very least won’t grace me with one.
 
fhansen said:
It’s not either/or- it’s both/and. This is why Trent references these two verses:

Therefore tell the people: This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Return to me,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘and I will return to you,’ says the LORD Almighty. Zec 1:3

This speaks of mans free will in turning to God.

Restore us to yourself, O LORD, that we may return; renew our days as of old. Lam 5:21

This speaks of Gods grace in causing man to turn back to God.
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Therefore, our conversation is really about the sufficiency of grace or how powerful and effectual is the grace of God for sinners, correct?
 
2nd_Adam said:
Sure, but could you please move the question to the Calvinism thread?
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This thread is about how Calvinistic and Catholic people view the sufficiency of Christ. Again, one cannot expect to approach this without one’s own theology.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
This thread is about how Calvinistic and Catholic people view the sufficiency of Christ. Again, one cannot expect to approach this without one’s own theology.
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I have to respectfully disagree. There are many many Arminian Protestants who believe in the sufficiency of Christ like I do. Here’s a Calvinism thread created just for you. Adopition through propitiation is more of a Protestant perspective.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=397258
 
2nd_Adam said:
Therefore, our conversation is really about the sufficiency of grace or how powerful and effectual is the grace of God for sinners, correct?
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It’s also about to what ends God chooses to use that grace. We believe that man, for the purpose of salvation, is granted the ability, through a process of cooperating with the Potter, of being molded into a vessel fit for eternity with Him whereas you believe God’s grace is utilized to merely forgive the vessel and impute another’s righteousness to him, rendering the molding an unnecessary aspect of salvation.

This is why Trent explains:

"while God touches the heart of man by the illumination of the Holy Ghost, neither is man himself utterly without doing anything while he receives that inspiration, forasmuch as he is also able to reject it; yet is he not able, by his own free will, without the grace of God, to move himself unto justice in His sight."

Part of the difference has to do with time. The work of the HS in justifying man is simply not a one-time event but rather one that takes place continuously-our faith as well as our love being challenged and stretched throughout life- their “survival” dependent in part on our responses.
 
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