The sufficiency of Christ

[Dancelittleewok]

So now Z’s faith is on trial but 2nd Adam still hasn’t defended or answered our questions…

 

[Love_is_Patient]

So now Z’s faith is on trial but 2nd Adam still hasn’t defended or answered our questions…

I don’t think 2nd Adam is interested in dialogue. He likes :hug1: though.

Of course, I’d be happy for him to prove me wrong.

Love is Patient

 

[benidict]

Soli Deo Gloria

When you think about it and simplify our differences… Protestants believe that our justification and adoption through propitiation is based on the righteousness of Christ alone. It is never based on our personal righteousness that is gained through the cooperation of the grace of God. Therefore as a Catholic, you are not justified, or your sins are not paid in full, or you are not adopted in the family of God on the basis of Christ’s righteousness alone. It appears your salvation and final destination is truly a cooperation between God and man, making a shared glory between God and man. If you are familiar with the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, Catholic Theology is unable to proclaim Glory to God alone (Soli Deo Gloria) in your salvation. If man’s chief aim in life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever, then a view which give God all the glory of salvation is the correct view… one in which Christ is sufficient for our full atonement and adoption into the family of God which cannot be revoked. In human terms, can you imagine a family adopting a child and later in life revoking and undoing the adoption based on something the child did. Most people would consider that to be a terrible act by parents who revoked an adoption of a child later in life. How can a Holy and perfectly moral and loving God undo an adoption which was based on the perfect righteousness of Christ? How sufficient is Christ for you?

God’s Everlasting Love
he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? - Apostle Paul

hi 2nd. so i am right? this is what you were trying to draw out in your thread? also it is nice you have the power to judge that our mormon friend is outside the circle of the family of God. im glad you have been given a power even our beloved Pontiff, has not claimed. gee, it must be nice to have a neatly packaged knowledge, about who is accepted by God and who is not. so since you wont, i will include him with us here. and you will love your mormon neighbor as yourself. :hug1::grouphug: please…

 

[benidict]

You are very welcome. If you wanted to explore this subject in depth out of all the standard works of the LDS Church, there is a lot more to get your teeth into. In my discussions here I generally tend to quote only from the Bible, because that is what everybody believes in (or claim to). But for your information, here are some additional insights out of LDS scriptures on this subject:

2 Nephi 9:

21 And he cometh into the world that he may save all men if they will hearken unto his voice; for behold, he suffereth the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam.
22 And he suffereth this that the resurrection might pass upon all men, that all might stand before him at the great and judgment day.
23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God.
24 And if they will not repent and believe in his name, and be baptized in his name, and endure to the end, they must be damned; for the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has spoken it.

D&C 18:

10 Remember the worth of souls is great in the sight of God;
11 For, behold, the Lord your Redeemer suffered death in the flesh; wherefore he suffered the pain of all men, that all men might repent and come unto him.
12 And he hath risen again from the dead, that he might bring all men unto him, on conditions of repentance.
13 And how great is his joy in the soul that repenteth!
14 Wherefore, you are called to cry repentance unto this people.
15 And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

hi zerinus. i must admit,it does help to have a Mormon quoting out of their book, and rightly dividing it, than trying to read it on my own. i really appreciate your insights. please feel free to give more. God bless you and yours. also i am making 2nd give you a hug too.:grouphug: see?

 

[benidict]

You’ve mentioned Augustine many times but have not yet seen proof that he is a “Calvinistic hybrid” or any that he put predestination vs. free will.

Did I say that Christ’s creation isn’t good? If anything these scripture passages debunk total depravity. If Adam and Eve can freely choose to turn their backs upon God, it is logical (and scriptural) to believe mankind can do so now. Yes, mankind cannot save Himself but the issue here if he can cooperate with God’s grace. I, am by NO means, denying original sin or Christian grace (as they are properly understood through the Church) as did Pelagius. Furthermore, there is nothing in post to suggest that I believe the same.

If Adam and Eve can freely choose their backs on God in the garden, why can’t human beings now? If God can grant Adam and Eve free will to choose Him and still reign Sovereign, why not now?

hi dancelittleewok. its interesting he keeps quoting augustine. since if you have ever read the city of God. he states that those who cause schisms, and dissentions are of the spirit of antichrist. its spooky to read his writings then see what happened in the reformation. because they seem to fulfill what augustine said. i dont know how 2nd can claim that augustine was a calvinist anything. he was most decidedly Catholic. and the only way 2nd can use his writings is out of context. God bless you and yours.

 

[zerinus]

hi zerinus. i must admit,it does help to have a Mormon quoting out of their book, and rightly dividing it, than trying to read it on my own. i really appreciate your insights. please feel free to give more. God bless you and yours. also i am making 2nd give you a hug too.:grouphug: see?

You are very welcome. Tell me what subject you were interested in, and I will tell you more. One of the purposes of the Book of Mormon (and other LDS scriptures) has been to dissolve doubt, and create more theological certainty about the vital doctrines of the gospel, about which there has been much contention and dispute in the Christian world over the centuries. The Book of Mormon states one of its purposes to be the “confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions” (2 Nephi 3:12). It provides the vital link required to settle many theological controversies of the centuries. The case of the arguments about predestination, and whether the Atonement was universal or limited, which we have been discussion here, are typical examples. The Book of Mormon testifies more powerfully to the divinity of Jesus Christ for example than the Bible does. That is why you will find Mormons who know their own scriptures very well turn out to be better theologians than non-Mormons.

 

[benidict]

You are very welcome. Tell me what subject you were interested in, and I will tell you more. One of the purposes of the Book of Mormon (and other LDS scriptures) has been to dissolve doubt, and create more theological certainty about the vital doctrines of the gospel, about which there has been much contention and dispute in the Christian world over the centuries. The Book of Mormon states one of its purposes to be the “confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions” (2 Nephi 3:12). It provides the vital link required to settle many theological controversies of the centuries. The case of the arguments about predestination, and whether the Atonement was universal or limited, which we have been discussion here, are typical examples. The Book of Mormon testifies more powerfully to the divinity of Jesus Christ for example than the Bible does. That is why you will find Mormons who know their own scriptures very well turn out to be better theologians than non-Mormons.

hi zerinus, just keep watching the postings. ill be honest, i do not believe the book of mormon is true. but that being said,i do believe their are good lessons to be learned in it. what i find more impressive, is the Mormons themselves and their walk. this is more important to me than your doctrines. even though i do not agree with them, it is good to see someone who can rightly divide the writings in a way that makes it easier for the average person to understand. have read the Book of Mormon several times. but like us, you do have a governing authority to teach you how to interpret it. it is not fair for someone like myself to take verses or chapters and comment on them, when more than likely i am taking them out of context. i think we can all benifit from your insights, its no different than when someone takes a Catholic teaching out of context. it aggravates me to no end to see this happen to anyone. if you could give me a web site to go on to see how this book is to be read properly it would be much appreciated. im not looking to be convinced. that is not possible. but, i would very much like to gain a deeper understanding of my Mormon friends. thank you very much. and God bless you and yours. :grouphug:

 

[Dancelittleewok]

hi dancelittleewok. its interesting he keeps quoting augustine. since if you have ever read the city of God. he states that those who cause schisms, and dissentions are of the spirit of antichrist. its spooky to read his writings then see what happened in the reformation. because they seem to fulfill what augustine said. i dont know how 2nd can claim that augustine was a calvinist anything. he was most decidedly Catholic. and the only way 2nd can use his writings is out of context. God bless you and yours.

The Confession by St. Augustine is a great book as well. Augustine himself struggled with lust and joined a sect but in then end became a Catholic bishop and doctor of the Church. In that book, he says, “All roads lead to Rome” after his conversion.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

So, what is truth Zerinus?

“truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come” (D&C 93:24).

:knight1: I don’t believe that Doctrines and Covenants is revelation from God. Therefore, in all gentlenss and respect, I reject your definition and source of truth. :knight2:

To some of my dear Catholic siblings, listen to the Apostle Paul in regards to Mormonism:

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. - 2 Cor 11

 

[2nd_Adam]

hi dancelittleewok. its interesting he keeps quoting augustine. since if you have ever read the city of God. he states that those who cause schisms, and dissentions are of the spirit of antichrist. its spooky to read his writings then see what happened in the reformation. because they seem to fulfill what augustine said. i dont know how 2nd can claim that augustine was a calvinist anything. he was most decidedly Catholic. and the only way 2nd can use his writings is out of context. God bless you and yours.

“Give what you command, and command what you choose.” - Augustine

Please note that Reformers like Calvin and Luther as well as Reformed Theology in general have been heavliy influenced by Augustine. I personally believe if Augustine lived during the Reformation, he would have been one of the major Protestant Reformers.

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon

 

[2nd_Adam]

Originally Posted by Dancelittleewok
So now Z’s faith is on trial but 2nd Adam still hasn’t defended or answered our questions…

I don’t think 2nd Adam is interested in dialogue. He likes :hug1: though.

Of course, I’d be happy for him to prove me wrong.

Love is Patient

Let’s please don’t get side-tracked with Mormonism on this thread. I noticed that there are quite a few Mormonism threads going on right now on the non-catholic religion section. This thread is not about Mormonism since I don’t believe they are part of the family of God who are united to Christ.

 

[2nd_Adam]

hi 2nd. so i am right? this is what you were trying to draw out in your thread? also it is nice you have the power to judge that our mormon friend is outside the circle of the family of God. im glad you have been given a power even our beloved Pontiff, has not claimed. gee, it must be nice to have a neatly packaged knowledge, about who is accepted by God and who is not. so since you wont, i will include him with us here. and you will love your mormon neighbor as yourself. :hug1::grouphug: please…

Does the Catholic Church accept Mormons as your brother and sisters in Christ? Does the Catholic Church accept Mormon baptisms when they convert to the Catholic Faith? You guys need biblical discernment brother to determine the mission field. We need to speak the truth in love for the sake of those who are being deceived. It’s all very interesting that many Catholics on this site have no idea if Muslims and Jews consist of the mission field too.

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough… And what I do I will continue to do, in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds… - Apostolic teaching

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. - Paul

Before you include your Mormon neighbors as being in the family of God through Christ… please post official Catholic sources to support what you are trying to do. I think you have gone beyond the Magestrium brother!

Historic creeds and confessions, and orthodox unity only!

 

[fhansen]

2nd Adam, I think there’s a sort of impasse here. I think most Catholics will end up viewing your theology as being partially based on speculative intellectual concepts that feign a certain piety or humility towards God and our utter dependency on His grace by supposedly placing a higher value on the sufficiency of Christ, but end up placing an unnecessarily lower view on Gods creation-in this case us-and of His purposes for us - than is warranted -with the result that your theology may be close-but skewed somewhat in it’s understanding and therefore in it’s value.

 

[2nd_Adam]

hi zerinus. i must admit,it does help to have a Mormon quoting out of their book, and rightly dividing it, than trying to read it on my own. i really appreciate your insights. please feel free to give more. God bless you and yours. also i am making 2nd give you a hug too.:grouphug: see?

I have known many dear Mormon friends and neighbors throughout my life. I just try to share the gospel with them the best that I can. I almost always take the time to share the truth with Mormon missionaries when I see them. I am currently sharing the historic Christian faith and the biblical Jesus Christ with a work friend who is an elder in the Mormon church. Actually, he approached me first since he knew that I was a Christian. You are not loving your Mormon neighbor Zerinus by making him think that he has peace and reconciliation with God through the Mormon Jesus. Speak the truth in love if you truly want to love your Mormon neighbor. ! If you aren’t able to understand what I am exhorting you to do, please take the time and have Mormon missionaries share what they believe at your home in Hawaii!



Zerinus, please send over some LDS missionaries to visit my brother Benidict in Hawaii!

BTW… Mormon sources such as the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are not accepted by the Magisterium as being part of the Word of God (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition). Therefore, they should not be used on this thread within our discussion!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I have known many dear Mormon friends and neighbors throughout my life. I just try to share the gospel with them the best that I can. I almost always take the time to share the truth with Mormon missionaries when I see them. I am currently sharing the historic Christian faith and the biblical Jesus Christ with a work friend who is an elder in the Mormon church. Actually, he approached me first since he knew that I was a Christian. You are not loving your Mormon neighbor Zerinus by making him think that he has peace and reconciliation with God through the Mormon Jesus. Speak the truth in love if you truly want to love your Mormon neighbor. ! If you aren’t able to understand what I am exhorting you to do, please take the time and have Mormon missionaries share what they believe at your home in Hawaii!

http://piedpatter.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/mormon-missionaries.jpg

Zerinus, please send over some LDS missionaries to visit my brother Benidict in Hawaii!

BTW… Mormon sources such as the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are not accepted by the Magisterium as being part of the Word of God (Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition). Therefore, they should not be used on this thread within our discussion!

2nd, did we ever say that the Mormon’s books are the Word of God? Because we have chosen to treat Z with dignity because he is a human being and doing that, doesn’t entail that any posters here have chosen “another gospel.”

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd, did we ever say that the Mormon’s books are the Word of God? Because we have chosen to treat Z with dignity because he is a human being and doing that, doesn’t entail that any posters here have chosen “another gospel.”

We are all trying to treat Z with gentleness and respect. There is not an easy way to tell him that he believes in a false gospel, unless you think Mormons are part of the family of God through Jesus Christ. It appears that Benedict has crossed that line. If you consider Scripture, each person is either an adopted child of God or still a child of the devil. We are all either united to Adam (old humanity) or now united to Christ (new humanity). We can judge the message of a person.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

We are all trying to treat Z with gentleness and respect. There is not an easy way to tell him that he believes in a false gospel, unless you think Mormons are part of the family of God through Jesus Christ. It appears that Benedict has crossed that line. If you consider Scripture, each person is either an adopted child of God or still a child of the devil. We are all either united to Adam (old humanity) or now united to Christ (new humanity). We can judge the message of a person.

Benedict said “I don’t believe the Book of Mormon to be true.” Whence did she accept another gospel? Is true charity bestowed upon only the elect by the elect?

Adam, the bolded part is your interpretation of Scripture. Since you’ve brought up Adam and Eve, why not answer my questions on post 220 and bring this thread on track, huh?

 

[zerinus]

hi zerinus, just keep watching the postings. ill be honest, i do not believe the book of mormon is true. but that being said,i do believe their are good lessons to be learned in it. what i find more impressive, is the Mormons themselves and their walk. this is more important to me than your doctrines. even though i do not agree with them, it is good to see someone who can rightly divide the writings in a way that makes it easier for the average person to understand. have read the Book of Mormon several times. but like us, you do have a governing authority to teach you how to interpret it. it is not fair for someone like myself to take verses or chapters and comment on them, when more than likely i am taking them out of context. i think we can all benifit from your insights, its no different than when someone takes a Catholic teaching out of context. it aggravates me to no end to see this happen to anyone.

I agree with you and thank you for your kind words. I think it is better for people of different faiths to try to gain a better understanding of each other, than damning each other to hell for their differences as the Protestant extremists and fanatics are fond of doing. My understanding of the gospel has been greatly enriched by my conversations with Catholics here, and I hope I can make an equal contribution to helping them gain a better understanding of Mormonism.

if you could give me a web site to go on to see how this book is to be read properly it would be much appreciated. im not looking to be convinced. that is not possible. but, i would very much like to gain a deeper understanding of my Mormon friends. thank you very much. and God bless you and yours. :grouphug:

There isn’t such a site; and if there was, it would be a misleading one. The best way to read the Book of Mormon is to just read it like any other book, and make up your own mind about it.

 

[zerinus]

zerinus;5941938:

2nd Adam;5941855:

Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

So, what is truth Zerinus?

“truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come” (D&C 93:24).

:knight1: I don’t believe that Doctrines and Covenants is revelation from God. Therefore, in all gentlenss and respect, I reject your definition and source of truth. :knight2:

That is an absurd and ridiculous comment to make. The truth of a statement is determined on its own merits, not the source where it came from. 2+2=4 whether it is written in the Bible or the Book of Mormon. The Bible says “Thou shalt not kill;” the Book of Mormon also says “Thou shalt not kill;” does that mean that it is wrong to kill when it is written in the Bible, but OK to kill when it is written in the Book of Mormon? That is the dumbest thing I ever heard. You asked me what my definition of “truth” was, and I gave you the best definition I had found, which happens to come from the Doctrine and Covenants. If that definition is wrong, it should be intrinsically wrong, which means that you should be able to critique it with sound logic and reason, and explain why you think it is wrong; not just tell me it is wrong because of where it is coming from. With every minute that passes, your false beliefs are becoming more and more a laughingstock on this thread.

To some of my dear Catholic siblings, listen to the Apostle Paul in regards to Mormonism:

For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough. - 2 Cor 11

Judging by the response to this thread that you have so far received, it looks like most Catholics think you are the one who has been teaching “another gospel” here rather than me.

 

[zerinus]

Let’s please don’t get side-tracked with Mormonism on this thread. I noticed that there are quite a few Mormonism threads going on right now on the non-catholic religion section. This thread is not about Mormonism since I don’t believe they are part of the family of God who are united to Christ.

I would have a lot more respect for you and your beliefs if you were honest, open, and frank about them. There is nothing wrong with believing something different from what other people believe. No two people believe in exactly the same thing. People are bound to have different beliefs. But the least that they can do is to be honest about them. Tell people exactly what they believe in and why. That is the one thing that you have failed to do, therefore your credibility has been destroyed.