"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[guanophore]

Amen

It is responses like this, Tweety, to anti-catholic sentiments, that compromise your public reputation as a Catholic.

 

[guanophore]

It’s not a Catholic book my friend. Even the Catholic Catechism is in agreement with me that the Bible is God-breathed and the Word of God. To say that it is a Catholic book is to bring it down to a lower level. Peter and the Apostles were Christians and not Catholic in the way you define Catholic.

Both things are true, of course, 2nd. God breathed it through Catholics, and God breathed through those same CAtholics to preserve, promulgate, and canonize it into what we now have as the Bible. The fact that He is the primary mover makes it no less Catholic.

It only 'brings it down" because you have so much disdain for the Catholic faith.

Peter and the Apostles are Catholic in the way that THEY define Catholic.

It was their term for the Church. For them, there was only One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism.

 

[guanophore]

Excuse me sir I did not bring it up just answering a post. Hey but thanks anyway

No, I did not mean to imply that you did. I just made a new thread for it, so that we would not derail this one. Clearly it is an important topic, and clearly you feel personally justified in your beliefs about it. I thought perhaps you could support them.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I suspect we have two different definition of sufficient grace.

God’s grace is entirely sufficient. He wills everyone to be saved and gives all persons sufficient grace to be saved. If a person is predestined to heaven the God also gives them efficacious grace (final perseverence). In either case, the person is free to accept or reject the grace. But in the case of the elect, God wills that person to infallibly accept the efficacious grace, without taking away his freewill.

How do you understand it?

I think Ryan’s posting here is excellent. This may appear to very close to what Reformed Theology teaches. I also think that his posting represents official Catholic Augustinian theology. Maybe modern day Catholicism has moved away from Augustinian theology and moved left to a type of a semi-pelagius theology? BTW… I met many grounded Catholics who think like Ryan on these issues.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Both things are true, of course, 2nd. God breathed it through Catholics, and God breathed through those same CAtholics to preserve, promulgate, and canonize it into what we now have as the Bible. The fact that He is the primary mover makes it no less Catholic.

It only 'brings it down" because you have so much disdain for the Catholic faith.

Peter and the Apostles are Catholic in the way that THEY define Catholic.

It was their term for the Church. For them, there was only One Faith, One Lord, One Baptism.

You know how silly you appear to Protestants?

1. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible
2. The Catholic Church is the One True Church
3. There is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church
4. Protestants are united to the Catholic Church
5. Salvation is through the Catholic Church.
6. The Apostles were Catholic
7. Catholic this, Catholic that, Catholic this… you have no room left for Jesus my friend.

It’s obvious you like to point everyone to the Catholic Church for life and salvation. I will continue to point everyone to Jesus Christ for life and salvation. I will continue to proclaim Him and you will continue to proclaim the Catholic Church. I understand why many Catholic consider themselves to be Catholic first, and Christian a distant second. I am a Christian first, Evangelical second, and a Calvinist a distant third.

Paul’s Ministry to the Church

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. - Paul

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Apostolic teaching

 

[zerinus]

You know how silly you appear to Protestants?

1. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible
2. The Catholic Church is the One True Church
3. There is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church
4. Protestants are united to the Catholic Church
5. Salvation is through the Catholic Church.
6. The Apostles were Catholic
7. Catholic this, Catholic that, Catholic this… you have no room left for Jesus my friend.

Do you believe in doing what Jesus tells you to do, or do you believe in just calling out His name?

Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 6:

46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Catholics seem to me to be in better spiritual shape than Protestants, because their religion is more action oriented than just paying Jesus lip service. Remember, it is the doing that counts, not just paying lip service.

 

[izoid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I think we have to understand that God commands all men everywhere to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ for forgivness, reconcilation and adoption. Therefore, all who come to Christ will find that Christ is sufficient as the source of eternal forgivness, reconcilation and adoption. Now, I believe you have gone farther than that basic truth and used the word efficacious grace (final perseverence) given only to the elect, correct?
Quote:

Originally Posted by izoid
Do you believe that all men are capable of coming to Him. If not, why can’t they?
Quote:

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
I think we all know that God’s grace is required to come to him. I don’t think you are taking a Pelgaius position, are you? Are you trying to say all men are capable of coming to Him apart from the grace of God?
Quote:

Originally Posted by izoid
Never said that.

My question originates from my understanding of Calvinism. Since you stated that God commanded every man to repent, I was asking you if you believe that every man is capable of fulfilling this command. I would be in full agreement with you that only the man who has been given grace by God can fulfill this command but I am interested in whether you believe God grants this grace to all mankind or only to some.

I think we have two issues. You are jumping into a discussion I am having with Ryan Oneil who seems to have a better understanding of the issues. The second issue is that you are trying to anticipate a Calvinist response without even attempting to discuss things between two Christians. I don’t mind discussing things with you, but we should all try to tone it down a few notches.

Last I checked, this is not a private chat room but an open discussion board. If you are having a private conversation with Ryan Oneil, you may want to find a better place to do so.

I have bolded my question to you above and I can not really see how I could tone it down as it is in no way hostile. Your attitude and slander towards me is, however, hostile and should be toned down.

Maybe you can educate me on the “proper” way to have a conversation but I thought asking a question and having the other person answer is quite satisfactory.

Really not anticipating a response. I think I was pretty clear that what I wrote was MY understanding. I was simply asking what you understanding was.

 

[izoid]

I do to, having spent years dispensing it in a medical clinic, and facilitating abortions, it would be impossible for me to admit that it does not exist. Please bring your “beliefs, period” to the other thread, so that we can avoid derailing this one.

2nd Adam, you did not answer my question. When was Cornelius saved?

Does God grand sufficient grace for all to come to repentance, and if not, why does He command them to do something He does not intend for them to do?

Thanks, in advance these areas have always been a mystery to me.

I see 2 very clear and honest questions here. Can you please answer them Adam?

 

[guanophore]

You know how silly you appear to Protestants?

No. Do I appear silly?

1. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible
2. The Catholic Church is the One True Church
3. There is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church
4. Protestants are united to the Catholic Church
5. Salvation is through the Catholic Church.
6. The Apostles were Catholic
7. Catholic this, Catholic that, Catholic this… you have no room left for Jesus my friend.

You hit it right on the head, except for the last one. In fact, the reason all the first six are true is ALL JESUS! He is the Head, and the Church is His Body!

This may seem silly to Protestants because many of them seem to have been duped by this modern day innovation of “Jesus’ n Me”, nobody else.

However, Jesus is not “alone”. He chose to build a Church, and He chose to make all those who come to Him as Head members of one another. That means, when we are saved, we become members of His One Body, the Church.

It’s obvious you like to point everyone to the Catholic Church for life and salvation. I will continue to point everyone to Jesus Christ for life and salvation. I will continue to proclaim Him and you will continue to proclaim the Catholic Church. I understand why many Catholic consider themselves to be Catholic first, and Christian a distant second. I am a Christian first, Evangelical second, and a Calvinist a distant third.

2nd, We don’t separate Jesus from His Body, so to us, it is the same. However, I am not here to “point” people. I am here to defend the Teachings of the Apostles that were committed to the Church. My mission is not primarily evangelistic. For that, I spend about 10 hours a day face to face with people who are suffering.

CAF is here to provide Catholic Answers. What did you expect? Did you expect me to claim to be Catholic, and give non-Catholic answers?

 

[Cr8ton]

Would you be so kind to show me where “my tradition nullifies this”? I would appreciate the Biblical text as well as the appropriate teaching from the Catholic Catechism.

I understand that you believe that your experience was a result of the truth of Scripture. Would you mind telling us who helped you interpret it, other than the Holy Spirit of course?

First off, I said “**if **your tradition nullifies this”.

Second, I would like to ask a sincere question based on an observation from your question towards me.

It seems you’re backing up the truth of the Catholic Church (in this particular situation) [as opposed to sola scriptura] based on my [assumed] lacking evidence that my experience was a result of the Holy Scriptures, Holy Spirit and lets face it, God’s will for my life. If this is so, please just confirm to me that is in fact what you are doing…

 

[elvisman]

You know how silly you appear to Protestants?

1. The Catholic Church gave us the Bible
2. The Catholic Church is the One True Church
3. There is no salvation apart from the Catholic Church
4. Protestants are united to the Catholic Church
5. Salvation is through the Catholic Church.
6. The Apostles were Catholic
7. Catholic this, Catholic that, Catholic this… you have no room left for Jesus my friend.

It’s obvious you like to point everyone to the Catholic Church for life and salvation. I will continue to point everyone to Jesus Christ for life and salvation. I will continue to proclaim Him and you will continue to proclaim the Catholic Church. I understand why many Catholic consider themselves to be Catholic first, and Christian a distant second. I am a Christian first, Evangelical second, and a Calvinist a distant third.

Paul’s Ministry to the Church

Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Him we proclaim, warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom, that we may present everyone mature in Christ. For this I toil, struggling with all his energy that he powerfully works within me. - Paul

Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel, for which I am suffering, bound with chains as a criminal. But the word of God is not bound! Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. - Apostolic teaching

Your problem, my stubborn friend is that you refuse to acknowledge what Jesus himself acknowledged:
That He and His Church are inseperable. The Church is the body of which Christ is the head. Jesus equates Himself with the Church (Acts 9:4-5).

YOU, in your spritually prideful rebelliousness try to dissect the Church from Jesus. It CAN’T be done.

---

**THAT’S why the very God-breathed Scripture that YOU claim to be the “Final Authority” says that the CHURCH is the the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15) and NOT the Scriptures themselves… **

"Catholic this and Catholic that", indeed . . .

 

[Rocket_Man]

That He and His Church are inseperable. The Church is the body of which Christ is the head. Jesus equates Himself with the Church.

Now all we need to do is define the church, because 10 verses later the Lord didn’t rebuke Ananias for defining the church as those who “call on thy name”.

“Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.”

 

[guanophore]

Now all we need to do is define the church, because 10 verses later the Lord didn’t rebuke Ananias for defining the church as those who “call on thy name”.

“Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.”

This is a very good point, and reinforces the Catholic Teaching that people can be saved who are not part of the visible Catholic Church. For example, a faithful Muslim might not know Christ, but purely and faithfully call upon the name of the Lord. Such a person, when confronted personally by the risen Christ, may well fall upon his knees, and call Him Lord.

 

[Rocket_Man]

This is a very good point, and reinforces the Catholic Teaching that people can be saved who are not part of the visible Catholic Church. For example, a faithful Muslim might not know Christ, but purely and faithfully call upon the name of the Lord. Such a person, when confronted personally by the risen Christ, may well fall upon his knees, and call Him Lord.

This Muslim would be very much thankful when those like Saul come looking for him that he could then claim that he’s not really really catholic!

 

[Dancelittleewok]

God’s sovereign will is always done. Our wills cannot resist the sovereign will of God, because we are simply creatures as compared to the Creator.

The following from “How to Converse Continually and Familiarly with God” by St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church from Tan Books, 2005:

“Think of the Lord in goodness” (Wisdom 1:1). The wise men exhorts us by these words to have a greater confidence in divine mercy than fear of the divine justice since God is far more inclined to do than to chastise. So says St. James, “Mercy exaltheth itself above judgement” (James 2:13) Hence the Apostle St. Peter warns us that in fear we feel for our concerns, be they temporal or eternal, we must abandon ourselves entirely to the good God, who has our salvation so much at heart: “*Casting all your cares upon Him for He hath care of you.” *(1 Peter 5:7). In this same regard, how beautiful is the title which David gives the Lord when he says that our God is the God who seeks to save: “For He is my God and my Savior…” (Psalm 61:7). This means according to [St. Robert] Cardinal Bellarmine, that God’s own particular office is, not to condemn, but to save everyone; for even though He threatens with His disfavor to those who despise Him, His mercy is assured to those who fear Him as our Blessed Mother sang in her *Magnificat: “And His mercy is from generation unto generation, to them that fear Him.” *

These texts of Scripture I set before you, Devout Soul, in order that when you are troubled by the thought whether you will be saved or lost, whether you are predestined or not, you may relieve your mind by considering the desire God has to save you, as is proved by His promises if only you stand firm in your resolution to serve and love Him as He demands.

Now my words:
Simply put, God has deemed to save us from the beginning, way back in Genesis 3:15:

I will put enmities between thee * and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.*

Who is her seed? The Douay-Rheims commentary:

15 “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head.

Catholics called this verse the proto-evangelism–basically meaning that this was where the Gospel was preached, that God Himself would save all of humanity by emptying out Himself and becoming a human like us, suffering like us, dying like us…Why would God save us if we are totally depraved, nothing but despised hateful creatures?

Furthermore, even if after Adam and Eve are banished from the Garden, God makes them clothes and has an angel guard the Tree of Life lest mankind become immortal in his damaged state:

21 And the Lord God made for Adam and his wife, garments of skins, and clothed them. 22 And he said: Behold Adam is become as one of us, knowing good and evil: now, therefore, lest perhaps he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever. 23 And the Lord God sent him out of the paradise of pleasure, to till the earth from which he was taken. 24 And he cast out Adam; and placed before the paradise of pleasure Cherubims, and a flaming sword, turning every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I was thinking about this thread and it occurred to me about Adam (of the Bible) and Christ, who is the new Adam. Adam’s original sin marred all of humanity because he was essentially mankind’s representative and similarly, Christ, the new Adam, died to redeem all humanity. This is why the ‘elect’ concept makes no sense to me because Adam’s sin didn’t affect some people but all: One man’s sin marred all but Jesus, both God and man, died to redeem all.

This is not to say that all who are redeemed with accept God’s gift–we have free will to choose God or not as seen with humanity’s original sin.

 

[guanophore]

This Muslim would be very much thankful when those like Saul come looking for him that he could then claim that he’s not really really catholic!

It wouldn’;t work, though, because we all know that all who are saved are joined to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Resistance is futile!

 

[benedictus2]

Once again thank you. I am Catholic just do not agree with all that is taught. So have a great Thanksgiving.

I have not read your other posts but if you do not agree with all that is taught then how can you claim to be Catholic?

And those points that you do not agree with, have you actually studied them?

 

[benedictus2]

I think Scripture can answer your question with authority. However, I think you have to settle on the biblical answer yourself. The sovereignity of God is found throughout all of Scripture. God could not be God if His will was not done. The God in the Bible is not a weak and anemic God in which man’s fee will can overpower God’s sovereign will. Maybe we should start a thread on the attributes of God according to Scripture revelation alone?

The God in the Bible is not weak and anaemic but it was His WILL, His CHOICE to create us with Free Will. He could have created us robots but HE CHOSE NOT TO DO THAT.

Sort of if this were a boxing match He decided to go into the ring with one hand tied behind Him .

However He does give us sufficent grace to assent to His will. Always sufficient, but never efficacious.

Furthermore, I have raised this with you before, if you believe that grace is always sufficient as in efficacious, you can come up with the conclusion that God created some men for the express purpose of damning them? Do you believe that?

 

[benedictus2]

It wouldn’;t work, though, because we all know that all who are saved are joined to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

**Resistance is futile! **

If they will only get that early enough, it will save them a lot of this meandering.

 

[benedictus2]

It’s not a Catholic book my friend. Even the Catholic Catechism is in agreement with me that the Bible is God-breathed and the Word of God. To say that it is a Catholic book is to bring it down to a lower level. Peter and the Apostles were Christians and not Catholic in the way you define Catholic.

Well no. The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is God. We are God’s Body. So no, by saying that it is a Catholic Book does not in anyway bring it down to a lower level. It is a mere statement of fact. God CHOSE to build a Church. And through her HE WILLED that the Bible come about. The Word of God was proclaimed by the evangelists even before it was committed to writing.

Peter and the Apostles were Catholic. Christians yes, but Catholic. They were not Lutherans, Baptists, etc, etc, etc. They were Catholic. Study history.