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Dancelittleewok
Guest
It’s by own admission.Oh and thank you for calling me a Cafeteria Catholic!
Have a nice day!
"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.
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Have a nice day!
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izoid
Guest
By your own admission you are a cafeteria Catholic. I fail to understand your approach, do you simply like the attention?Oh and thank you for calling me a Cafeteria Catholic!
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Tomb54
Guest
So if I understand this right they say God forces them to believe. If this is so then why can’t/won’t He make the Devil believe and worship Him because He can do that too. If fact if that is the case then why don’t all people believe because the Bible states He want all to believe and love Him and if they are right there is not reason for anyone not to believe if He forces people to believe as they state. I guess I just can’t follow their logic on this one.God makes them believe, irresistible grace, thus it is not an act of will on mans part. This is the explanation that gets around the works aspect of belief.
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benedictus2
Guest
Well in actual fact you are. If you pick and choose which doctrine you will believe then you are in fact a Cafeteria Catholic. That term may grate with you but that is just a plain and simple fact. You have demonstrated in this forum that you believe what you decide to believe even when it is against what the Catholic Church teaches so therefore you are a Cafeteria Catholic.Oh and thank you for calling me a Cafeteria Catholic!
Essentially you are protestant except that you were baptized Catholic.
There is no such thing as a “born agian Catholic” since to be Catholic is to be born again by virtue of our baptism so the term is superflou. If you were “born again” in any other way, then that is definitely NOT Catholic.
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benedictus2
Guest
I think humble submission to the authority that God placed in His Church goes a long way. Reverts have found this truth.
Here’s a little experience I had a year ago whilst debating in this forums.
I had no idea that the Catholic Church believes in pre-destination until a protestant told me. Shock horror it is indeed so. I did a little bit of research and found out that it is a de fide dogma of the church. But I cannot make heads or tails out of it nor reconcile it to what I believe the Church teaches. I sort of understood it a little bit and was able to make a reply as to why the Catholic belief is different to Calvinist pre-destination but then another ask a related question and my doubts re-surfaced.
So I struggled trying to reconcile this with what I believed was true. But I could not.
In the end I said to myself ’ who am I to think that I am better than Agustin, Aquinas and the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, that just because I cannot understand it then they must be all wrong and I am right". So in humble submission I accepted it even though I could not completely understand.
Then a wonderful thing happend. Enlightenment came and I was actually able to understand it enough to be able to make a decent post.
When you dissent because you think you are right you are essentially saying that you know better than the men (fathers, doctors and saints of the church) that Jesus has put at the helm of His Church. That is supreme arrogance.
But that is not surprising, considering that you presume you know better than God who ought and ought not to be conceived.
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izoid
Guest
They will not say that God forces them. What they say is that His outpouring of grace is so irresistible that one cannot not accept it. This grace is not forced, it is gladly accepted, but man cannot reject it.
THis is one of my main issues with Calvinism. It makes no sense to me that God makes His grace irresistible yet man comes to it willingly. In other words man has no choice to accept the grace but he does so willingly. It is like if someone holds a gun to a loved one and demands your money. The argument is so compelling that you gladly give him your money.
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benedictus2
Guest
And if you extend that, this means that god purposely witholds this irresistible grace to some. Considering that God is the one who cause these people into being, it seems that god caused them into being for the whole purpose of denying them this irresistible grace so that they can be damned. Nasty god that one.They will not say that God forces them. What they say is that His outpouring of grace is so irresistible that one cannot not accept it. This grace is not forced, it is gladly accepted, but man cannot reject it.
THis is one of my main issues with Calvinism. It makes no sense to me that God makes His grace irresistible yet man comes to it willingly. In other words man has no choice to accept the grace but he does so willingly. It is like if someone holds a gun to a loved one and demands your money. The argument is so compelling that you gladly give him your money.
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tweetymom
Guest
Thank you. God Bless
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tweetymom
Guest
Thank you and God Bless
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tweetymom
Guest
Thank you and God Bless
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ryanoneil
Guest
I do agree with you. Yet, the Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death.
**For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? (Rom 8:24)
even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ 5 (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; (Eph 2:5-8)
He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began (2 Tim 1:9)
not because of any righteous deeds we had done but because of his mercy, he saved us through the bath of rebirth and renewal by the holy Spirit (Titus 3:5)**
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Carlan
Guest
Thank you Ryanoneil and Benedictus2 and all the other wonderful Apologists here at C.A.
Carlan
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Tomb54
Guest
I read that a Catholic when asked “are you saved” can and should answer it in 3 ways. 1) Yes I am saved because I accept Jesus Christ as my Savior. 2) I am being saved as you must live a Christ-like life daily, and 3) I hope to be saved as we must persevere to the end as Paul often stated.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Absolutely!
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Tomb54
Guest
Yes this is the part I have problem with their logic. I have even heard one Calvinist say that not all those that believe are even saved thus even though he said he knew he was saved only the elect are the ones saved. Always wonder how he knew when he said people do not know who the elect are until the end. How does this give confidence in salvation when only those chosen by God (no freewill to chose yourself) are the ones saved. Even believing, accepting God’s grace, and living a Christan life will not save you if your not on a list from the start. Does make for a very nasty god.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I’m still here, but I don’t have the time to catch up right now. Thanks for your continual participation on this thread.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
I don’t believe it’s biblical to say that you have accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior. That’s a modern day invention which started with Charles Finney in the 2nd Great Awakening in America. Your point 2 is interesting. All Christians strive to live a life worthy of our call, yet we all struggle with sin daily in this body and current world system, and our enemy the devil is real. So, what happens when you fall short of the worthy goal of living a Christ-like life daily? What do you do?
To live a life worthy of our calling can be summarized as this:
- Love the Lord your God with ALL or your heart, soul, strenght, and mind
- Love your neighbor as yourself.
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izoid
Guest
What do you do…sacrament of reconciliation.
God has called us to a constant life of repentance and service. When you fall short, you confess and get back in the fight.
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2nd_Adam
Guest
We do the same thing, we confess our sins and repent. However, we go directly to God in our confession, since all sin is againts God. Then we return in faith in the truth of the gospel. Since most Protestant Churches do not have the sacrament of reconcillation, are you saying that God does not hear our confession of our sins; therefore, He does not forgive us?What do you do…sacrament of reconciliation.
God has called us to a constant life of repentance and service. When you fall short, you confess and get back in the fight.
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Carlan
Guest
You have participated here at CA quiet long en ought to know what Catholics do when they sin and fall short.
Tell us what you do as a Calvinist. When you fall short?
#1 and #2 all Christians are to follow those two and the other 8 as well, Do you suppose Apostolic Christians are the only ones who have a need in that area of growth in holiness?
Carlan- Status