"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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2nd_Adam said:
Hi sister, I’m glad you came to play on this thread!
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Wouldn’t miss it for the world. Oh peace and love be with you and your family on Thanksgiving. May you continue to do Gods work here and in your world. I am very thankful that I have met you dear brother in Christ.🙂
 
Rocket_Man said:
We are judged by our works because they are the evidence of a true saving faith.

James 2:20, "…that faith without works is dead

Jesus said to her: I am the resurrection and the life: he that believeth in me, although he be dead, shall live: And every one that liveth and believeth in me shall not die for ever. Believest thou this? She saith to him: Yea, Lord, I have believed that thou art Christ, the Son of the living God, who art come into this world.
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Can you explain to me what your understanding of the Catholic view of Justification is? Don’t go look it up and copy it but please help us to understand what you think we beleive.
 
crazzeto said:
Until we Catholics know the foundation, Protestants are not going to listen to us when we try to teach them about the upper stories of the building. Perhaps God allows the Protestant/Catholic division to persist not only because Protestants have abandoned many precious truths taught by the Church but also because many Catholics have never been taught the most precious truth of all, that salvation is a free gift of grace, accepted by faith. I remember vividly the thrill of discovery when, as a young Protestant at Calvin College, I read Saint Thomas Aquinas and the Council of Trent on justification. I did not find what I had been told I would find, “another gospel” of do-it-yourself salvation by works, but a clear and forceful statement that we can do nothing without God’s grace, and that this grace, accepted by faith, is what saves us".
catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0027.html
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:banghead: Did you actually read this? He’s talking about the false doctrine of saved by works alone, which the Catholic Church very much rejects. This doesn’t mean saved by faith alone is correct.

For the 5 billionth time, it’s save by grace alone, with the necessary response of faith working through love. No one here has ever said, at least in any post I’ve read that we are saved by works alone!!! That doesnt’ mean we aren’t judged on the merits of our works, which is deomonstrated very clearly in the bible. The thing is, with out Faith you essentially don’t get a trail, you get Judged based upon your outright rejection of God to begin with. If you have the faith, then terrific!! You get a trail! Then God Judges you, based upon the merits of your works, and not the merits of your faith, which is where protestants have gone all wrong.
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Did you read what Pope Benedict has to say in regards to justification by faith alone? I think he was complimenting Martin Luther too. Please read my signature link and get back to me on that one, okay?
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izoid said:
Can you explain to me what your understanding of the Catholic view of Justification is? Don’t go look it up and copy it but please help us to understand what you think we beleive.
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I would say without looking it up, that your view of justification is intertwoven with the process of sanctification. You are through your works lighting both candles.
 
crazzeto said:
:banghead: Did you actually read this? He’s talking about the false doctrine of saved by works alone, which the Catholic Church very much rejects. This doesn’t mean saved by faith alone is correct.
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Interesting, that the Catholic Church considers my belief that we are **“saved by works alone” **is a false doctrine. Please see post 12 in regards to my belief in regards to works alone.

Post 12
2nd_Adam said:
This is what I honestly believe:

Christianity is a 100% works based righteousness.

http://fineartamerica.com/images-medium/cross-at-sunrise-steven-rice.jpg
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The Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Did you read what Pope Benedict has to say in regards to justification by faith alone? I think he was complimenting Martin Luther too. Please read my signature link and get back to me on that one, okay?
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I suspect you read Pope Benedict as closely as you read this Catholic college professor.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Did you read what Pope Benedict has to say in regards to justification by faith alone? I think he was complimenting Martin Luther too. Please read my signature link and get back to me on that one, okay?
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I have gotten back to you on that over and over but you never, not once, addressed it. You are being totally dishonest in acting like the Pope agrees with Luther.
 
Rocket_Man said:
I would say without looking it up, that your view of justification is intertwoven with the process of sanctification. You are through your works lighting both candles.
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I am sorry but I can’t understand what you are trying to say. I really do not know what lighting both candles means. Sorry.
 
Hey Rocket—Let’s continue our discussion from the “sufficiency of Christ” thread. Here was our last communication:

Originally Posted by Rocket_Man
In this case, when you have two varying opinions, we would go back to scripture for the answer. Many times, there isn’t a clear answer, especially when it’s not central to the Gospel. Such as baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15:29. Mormon’s have built a whole salvation doctrine from this one verse. We on the otherhand, and I think that includes you, find it inessential to the faith.
I think this is a catch 22. Here we have gone to the scriptures and come to a different conclusion than our brothers and sisters have. If I understand it correctly, you say we go back to scripture to determine the proper meaning. Since we had already done this and come to differing conclusions how can we go back and now get it correct? It seems to me that doing this has lead to the many different congregations that we have today.

I then responded:

I think the best approach is to look at early church history and see how the early believers understood this. It is quote easy to find out how the Christians during the first few centuries of the Church understood and practiced the faith.

Since these early believers were al sola scriptura Christians we can have assurance that they got it right.
 
Catholics believe neither faith nor works can save us outside of God’s grace. Once we accept Christ with faith and move into a system of grace, we must add good works to our faith in order to be justified. Faith justifies initially, but good works perfect and complete justification.
 
ryanoneil said:
Neither faith nor works can save us outside of God’s grace. Once we accept Christ with faith and move into a system of grace, we must add good works to our faith in order to be justified. Faith justifies initially, but good works perfect and complete justification.
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Great answer! It is now time for a new thread, this one is complete.
 
izoid said:
Great answer! It is now time for a new thread, this one is complete.
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Yup. What’s more to be said? 🤷

Now, what I’d really like to pursue is this “essentials” thing that keeps popping up among Protestants. That is, we should agree on “essentials” and can disagree on “secondaries”. That’s kind of a non-biblical paradigm, is it not?
 
PRmerger said:
Yup. What’s more to be said? 🤷

Now, what I’d really like to pursue is this “essentials” thing that keeps popping up among Protestants. That is, we should agree on “essentials” and can disagree on “secondaries”. That’s kind of a non-biblical paradigm, is it not?
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The only answer I got to this question, asked both in the “ask a Lutheran” and “ask a baptist” thread was “John Chapter 3, what else could it be?”. I got that from an Evangelical Baptist.
 
izoid said:
Hey Rocket—Let’s continue our discussion from the “sufficiency of Christ” thread. Here was our last communication:

Originally Posted by Rocket_Man
In this case, when you have two varying opinions, we would go back to scripture for the answer. Many times, there isn’t a clear answer, especially when it’s not central to the Gospel. Such as baptism for the dead in 1 Cor. 15:29. Mormon’s have built a whole salvation doctrine from this one verse. We on the otherhand, and I think that includes you, find it inessential to the faith.
I think this is a catch 22. Here we have gone to the scriptures and come to a different conclusion than our brothers and sisters have. If I understand it correctly, you say we go back to scripture to determine the proper meaning. Since we had already done this and come to differing conclusions how can we go back and now get it correct? It seems to me that doing this has lead to the many different congregations that we have today.

I then responded:

I think the best approach is to look at early church history and see how the early believers understood this. It is quote easy to find out how the Christians during the first few centuries of the Church understood and practiced the faith.

Since these early believers were al sola scriptura Christians we can have assurance that they got it right.
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Reading early church history might aid in your understanding. But I think it would be dangerous to consider this as an equal authority. For example, consider the Mormon claim that are the restored church of the early Fathers. They can be quite convincing arguing their position(s) using the same documents.
 
izoid said:
I am sorry but I can’t understand what you are trying to say. I really do not know what lighting both candles means. Sorry.
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Let’s say we have two candles, the first one is called “justification” and the second called “my works”. For the justification candle to continue to glow, you need to use the “my works” candle to continually light it. You can never be assured that the first candle won’t loose it’s flame.

I believe there are also two candles. But the first candle remains glowing forevermore because it’s Christ who lit it perfectly. And because I can see the first candle is perfectly glowing, I use the flame of the first to light the second candle.
 
Rocket_Man said:
Let’s say we have two candles, the first one is called “justification” and the second called “my works”. For the justification candle to continue to glow, you need to use the “my works” candle to continually light it. You can never be assured that the first candle won’t loose it’s flame.

I believe there are also two candles. But the first candle remains glowing forevermore because it’s Christ who lit it perfectly. And because I can see the first candle is perfectly glowing, I use the flame of the first to light the second candle.
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Here’s the Catholic view: there is only ONE candle, and it’s Christ. 👍
 
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