"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[zerinus]

Let’s see what Kreeft says:

When Luther taught that we are saved by faith alone, he meant by salvation only the initial step, justification, being put right with God. But when Trent said we are saved by good works as well as faith, they meant by salvation the whole process by which God brings us to our eternal destiny and that process includes repentance, faith, hope, and charity, the works of love. . . .

I am going to have to disagree with this professor. I don’t claim to be an expert on Luther; but I have read enough of him to know that that is not what he meant by “salvation”. I think that the professor has erred in the rest of his analysis of Luther versus Catholicism as well.

2nd Adam;5980430:

This is what I honestly believe:

Christianity is a 100% works based righteousness.

I see no reason to disagree with the sufficiency of grace. Apart from God’s grace we can do nothing. Everything, faith and works, are all accomplished through His grace.

Do you agree with my post 12 above? My statement is either true or it is false. There is no middle ground gray answer. It is a black and white statement, requiring a simple yes or no.

In our Church (Mormon, just in case you forgot! ) we have a motto that says: “Pray as though everything depends on God, work as though everything depends on you.” Salvation is like that. Jesus did everything He needed to do to save us as though everything depended on Him. And He perfected that work. We need to do our part as though everything depends on us.

Thanks for the compliment Izoid brother! I always posted that I am truly catholic! I’m a Calvinist catholic hybrid just like Augustine and Paul… to the praise of God’s glorious sovereign grace.

Augustine may have deserved it; but please don’t insult Paul.

You’re not playing by the rules of the game Roman Catholic brother! You have to answer yes or no to my question.

What is your answer brother?

Who says he has to give yes or no answers? You ask trick questions, and trick questions require trick answer. You are entitled to ask questions; but you are not entitled to determine the shape and form of the answers. I am surprised that these folks continue to dialogue with you at all. You are getting more and more arrogant all the time.

Did you read what Pope Benedict has to say in regards to justification by faith alone? I think he was complimenting Martin Luther too. Please read my signature link and get back to me on that one, okay?

With all due respect to Pope Benedict, I think he made a gaffe when he said that. Popes are not always infallible you know. They can make mistakes. They are only infallible whey they speak Ex Cathedra; and it is not very often that they do that. This Pope especially has proved himself rather prone to make inadvisable comments which later turned out to have been unwise, which he afterwards had to withdraw. So I wouldn’t be too hasty to capitalize on that if I were you.

 

[izoid]

Reading early church history might aid in your understanding. But I think it would be dangerous to consider this as an equal authority. For example, consider the Mormon claim that are the restored church of the early Fathers. They can be quite convincing arguing their position(s) using the same documents.

Since we can gain an understanding of how the entire church worshipped and believed 2000 years ago I would think it is much “safer” than relying on our own understanding, wouldn’t you

You must also remember, the fathers are interpreting scripture and putting those interpretations into practices of faith.

You do need to be careful though, some of those 21st century protestant preachers can be quite convincing.

 

[2nd_Adam]

The Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works.

Can we at least agree on four of the 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation? Well, maybe you can at least agree on 3.5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, since faith alone is still up in the air, depending how we interpert Pope Benedicit. The ones in red are our common solas.

1 Sola scriptura (“by Scripture alone”)
2 Sola fide (“by faith alone”)
3 Sola gratia (“by grace alone”)
4 Solus Christus or Solo Christo (“Christ alone” or “through Christ alone”)
5 Soli Deo gloria (“glory to God alone”)

 

[2nd_Adam]

Catholics believe neither faith nor works can save us outside of God’s grace. Once we accept Christ with faith and move into a system of grace, we must add good works to our faith in order to be justified. Faith justifies initially, but good works perfect and complete justification.

There is another shared sola of grace alone! Even if we agree of grace alone, we need to discuss the sufficiency of grace too.

“The Council of Trent anathematizes anyone who says you can be saved without the grace of God. The Reformers, however, never claimed Rome believed you can be saved apart from grace. That wasn’t the debate. The debate of the Reformation was never, ever about the necessity of grace, it was always about the sufficiency of grace. That remains the issue today in so many contexts.” - James White

 

[Rocket_Man]

Since we can gain an understanding of how the entire church worshipped and believed 2000 years ago I would think it is much “safer” than relying on our own understanding, wouldn’t you

You must also remember, the fathers are interpreting scripture and putting those interpretations into practices of faith.

You do need to be careful though, some of those 21st century protestant preachers can be quite convincing.

I didn’t say they were not useful. I just cautioned that I wouldn’t consider them equal in authority. I don’t think we are leaning on our own understanding. Didn’t He give us a witness?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I have gotten back to you on that over and over but you never, not once, addressed it. You are being totally dishonest in acting like the Pope agrees with Luther.

Why can’t I like both Pope Benedict and Martin Luther?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I don’t know, I think I stated this 100 times by now in Adam’s threads. Yet here we are

By divine providence, you are drawn to my threads… I bet you can’t stay away from this thread by your own free will? You and I know it’s true because your will is not truly free to do that? You are powerless to leave this thread.

We also know that zerinus has no free will to leave this thread too. His will is quite powerless to leave this thread for good, especially since TULIP is a valid subject on this thread as long as it is linked to the OP statement. Free Willy is dead!

http://movies.warnerbros.com/freewilly/img/poster.jpg

Crazzeto and Zerinus have no free will abliity to stay away from this thread. If they post on here, then I have refuted the apparent doctrine of free will.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Here’s the Catholic view: there is only ONE candle, and it’s Christ.

Sir,

Please explain this one candle view so I can understand.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I think I know where Adam is going with 100% works righteousness bit and it all goes back to TULIP…

Since the Fall, we were depraved and had no choice but to sin; it was our sin nature. In the OT, God gave us the Law. In the Law, if you missed one commandment you failed them all. God gave us the Law to show us we couldn’t do good works to save ourselves–we needed His Son to do what we couldn’t do. Hence Calvinists believe that justification is 100% works righteousness–not of ourselves but Christ’s. Now that we are declared the elect and have a new nature within us, God will work through us since no matter what we do will be filth to him hence the either/or questions of works vs. grace.

However, this is based on many assumptions which Adam has skirted around and has not answered. You asked Roman Catholic earlier, if it’s either yes/no with grace or works, I say yes grace and yes works.

 

[Rocket_Man]

God will work through us since no matter what we do will be filth to him hence the either/or questions of works vs. grace.

Can you explain this last sentence another way so I can understand it!
Thanks

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Can you explain this last sentence another way so I can understand it!
Thanks

Actually, that last sentence was my understanding of Calvinism. From what I understand by listening to Sproul, MacArthur, and others, if we are totally depraved then no matter what we do will be filth to God–we are not perfect as Christ is perfect. However, once we are “saved” we have a new nature–a new Adam–and working with that and God working within us, we display our true elected-ness. Hence why I think 2ndAdam believes justification to be monogerism and santification to be syngeristic.

 

[tweetymom]

I am going to have to disagree with this professor. I don’t claim to be an expert on Luther; but I have read enough of him to know that that is not what he meant by “salvation”. I think that the professor has erred in the rest of his analysis of Luther versus Catholicism as well.

In our Church (Mormon, just in case you forgot! ) we have a motto that says: “Pray as though everything depends on God, work as though everything depends on you.” Salvation is like that. Jesus did everything He needed to do to save us as though everything depended on Him. And He perfected that work. We need to do our part as though everything depends on us.

Augustine may have deserved it; but please don’t insult Paul.

Who says he has to give yes or no answers? You ask trick questions, and trick questions require trick answer. You are entitled to ask questions; but you are not entitled to determine the shape and form of the answers. I am surprised that these folks continue to dialogue with you at all. You are getting more and more arrogant all the time.

With all due respect to Pope Benedict, I think he made a gaffe when he said that. Popes are not always infallible you know. They can make mistakes. They are only infallible whey they speak Ex Cathedra; and it is not very often that they do that. This Pope especially has proved himself rather prone to make inadvisable comments which later turned out to have been unwise, which he afterwards had to withdraw. So I wouldn’t be too hasty to capitalize on that if I were you.

One thing I wish you would do is shorten your picture at the end, I have a pretty big screen and I have to adjust everything everytime you are on. Thank you

 

[PRmerger]

Sir,

Please explain this one candle view so I can understand.

John 1:9
The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Catholics receive this light at Baptism.

The white garment symbolizes that the person baptized has “put on Christ,” (Gal 3:27) has risen with Christ. The candle, lit from the Easter candle, signifies that Christ has enlightened the neophyte.[SIGN] In him the baptized are “the light of the world”[/SIGN] (Mt 5:14; cf. Phil 2:15.)
The newly baptized is now, in the only Son, a child of God entitled to say the prayer of the children of God: "Our Father."1243 CCC

"This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself (John 1:9)

Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship. CCC 1216

 

[Rocket_Man]

John 1:9
The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.

Catholics receive this light at Baptism.

The white garment symbolizes that the person baptized has “put on Christ,” (Gal 3:27) has risen with Christ. The candle, lit from the Easter candle, signifies that Christ has enlightened the neophyte.[SIGN] In him the baptized are “the light of the world”[/SIGN] (Mt 5:14; cf. Phil 2:15.)
The newly baptized is now, in the only Son, a child of God entitled to say the prayer of the children of God: "Our Father."1243 CCC

"This bath is called enlightenment, because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself (John 1:9)

Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship. CCC 1216

Well, I was baptized Catholic. I wasn’t enlightened in my understanding, at least for the first 29 years of my life. So I don’t really think I can support this claim.

Could you explain “justification” and “works” within the candle analogy?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Great answer! It is now time for a new thread, this one is complete.

Izoid,

You can’t run from your family! Admit it, I’m your favorite Calvinist sibling on Catholic Answers. Did you know the “Doctrines of Grace” (TULIP) can be discussed on this thread, as long as you link it to the sufficiency of grace. We have 925 more posts to go before this thread is finished. This passage is Scripture proof for the thread topic on the sufficiency of grace:

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. - Pau;

 

[izoid]

I didn’t say they were not useful. I just cautioned that I wouldn’t consider them equal in authority. I don’t think we are leaning on our own understanding. Didn’t He give us a witness?

Yes He did give us a witness. That witness will lead to all truth. Why is it that so many people hear this witness to be telling them conflicting stories?

 

[izoid]

Why can’t I like both Pope Benedict and Martin Luther?

I don’t recall ever saying that you couldn’t like them both, did I? Why do you purposely twist peoples words?

What you claim to be the teachings of the Pope on sola fide are wrong and you know it yet you continue to do it. In my mind this is dishonesty and should not be tolerated amongst believers. You know darn well that Benedict did not agree with Luther’s interpretation of faith alone, stop misleading people to think otherwise.

 

[izoid]

Well, I was baptized Catholic. I wasn’t enlightened in my understanding, at least for the first 29 years of my life. So I don’t really think I can support this claim.

Could you explain “justification” and “works” within the candle analogy?

If you fail to pursue the things of God that is your fault, not Gods.

 

[Monica4316]

the Catholic Church does teach we’re saved by grace…

it teaches (and always taught) that we’re saved by grace, but we have to cooperate with this grace or else we’re rejecting it. (if we reject then then we can’t be saved)

what the Church opposes is not “grace alone” but “faith alone”… because faith alone is dead… faith must be expressed somehow, in works of love for God

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Izoid,

You can’t run from your family! Admit it, I’m your favorite Calvinist sibling on Catholic Answers. Did you know the “Doctrines of Grace” (TULIP) can be discussed on this thread, as long as you link it to the sufficiency of grace. We have 925 more posts to go before this thread is finished. This passage is Scripture proof for the thread topic on the sufficiency of grace:

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. - Pau;

Did you see posts 69 and 71?