"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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I guess we have nothing more to discuss Adam, as you seem to be unwilling to dialog. It has been interesting but I really don’t see the need to post in your threads any longer. I wish you well in your spiritual journey but remember, you must be honest with yourself in order to find the truth. Have a great Thanksgiving meal.
 
Please go back to my post because I said all of Scirpture revelation, and not just taking a few verses out of proper context in light of all of Scirpture. When we pull a few verses out of porper context, we can create our own doctrine which is not necessarily the truth.
The answer to that is to give your alternative scriptures that refutes his. If you don’t, then his argument stands.
 
LOL! 😃 You are an amusing fellow.
Originally Posted by izoid
Adam, I hope you can answer this with a yes or no as you have often encouraged us to.
  1. Do you think the Catholic Church teaches the true gospel message as you understand it?
  1. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Christ established on earth?
  1. Do you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, Saint, the Eucharist, Baptism and Justification are Biblical teachings?
  1. Finally, are you hopeful that Catholics here on CA will come to know the truth regarding the matters in question #3 above through your effort to point us to the truth?
Hey Zerinus,

If you answer the questions above, I too will answer them. 🙂
 
First, please tell me how long you have been Catholic.
I guess we have nothing more to discuss Adam, as you seem to be unwilling to dialog. It has been interesting but I really don’t see the need to post in your threads any longer. I wish you well in your spiritual journey but remember, you must be honest with yourself in order to find the truth. Have a great Thanksgiving meal.
Have a Happy Thanksgiving too brother. How come I have a feeling that this is your first Thanksgiving as being a Catholic Christian? I have company coming over in 2 hours. So I can post for about 2 more hours.
 
Is that so?

John 3:5
5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16’Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

1 COR 6:11
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:19-21
19in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison,

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.

21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

No scriptural basis huh?
I will get to these scriptures later. I have 40-50 family members over here today.
 
Hey Zerinus,

If you answer the questions above, I too will answer them. 🙂
I have no fears about answering those questions:

1. Do you think the Catholic Church teaches the true gospel message as you understand it?
For the most part yes. The core message that they teach (and they can correct me if I am wrong) is that salvation is through faith in (and obedience to) Jesus Christ who came to atone for the sins of mankind by His death on the cross, and rose again on the third day, ascended to heaven, and will come again at some future time to judge the living and the dead according to their works. And that is the message that we teach. Of course we add one additional core ingredient to it which they don’t teach, and that is the Restoration of the gospel in the latter days through Joseph Smith. But the most essential part which is the first part is correct, which is also what we teach.

2. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Christ established on earth?
It is the true church in the sense that it is the historical continuation of that original Church. The Protestants basically don’t have a leg to stand on. It is not true in the sense that it has lost the priesthood authority of the original Church. That claim is now being made by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

3. Do you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, Saint, the Eucharist, Baptism and Justification are Biblical teachings?
Some of the teachings are correct and some are not. Take baptism for example. They teach that baptism is necessary for salvation (unlike Protestants), and that is correct. But they are mistaken on the mode of baptism (sprinkling), and also on infant baptisms. They also have the issue of authority a bit mixed up. Baptism requires proper priesthood authority. It cannot be performed by just anybody, even in an emergency. Also “baptism of desire” is not something we agree with. On the subject of justification I think we pretty much agree.

4. Finally, are you hopeful that Catholics here on CA will come to know the truth regarding the matters in question #3 above through your effort to point us to the truth?
This is a question that was specifically addressed to you. You are the only one who can answer that question.
 
Originally Posted by izoid
Adam, I hope you can answer this with a yes or no as you have often encouraged us to.
  1. Do you think the Catholic Church teaches the true gospel message as you understand it? yes and no
  1. Do you believe that the Catholic Church is the true church that Christ established on earth? yes and no
  1. Do you believe the teachings of the Catholic Church regarding Mary, Saint, the Eucharist, Baptism and Justification are Biblical teachings? yes and no
  1. Finally, are you hopeful that Catholics here on CA will come to know the truth regarding the matters in question #3 above through your effort to point us to the truth?
No not really…it’s not a Catholic nor a Protestant issue. Many in the visible churches have a false assurance of being reconciled to God regardless of the Christian community they call home.
 
How come I feel you want a boxing match instead of fellowship with me? Is it too difficult to fellowship with your Evangelical brother?
Dear Brother In Christ,

I am not here to have fellowship with you. I am here to defend the Apostolic faith as it was committed to the Church, and preserved without error by the HS. I fellowship with those who receive that faith. You and Tweety only receive part of that Faith, so our fellowship does not reflect the unity that it might.
 
Dear Brother In Christ,

I am not here to have fellowship with you. I am here to defend the Apostolic faith as it was committed to the Church, and preserved without error by the HS. I fellowship with those who receive that faith. You and Tweety only receive part of that Faith, so our fellowship does not reflect the unity that it might.
http://www.thedctraveler.com/files/2008/03/boxing.jpg

Okay, I will knock some sense into you with my right hand. In Christ, there is no Catholic nor Protestant distinction… pow… pow!
 
I think Scripture can answer your question with authority. However, I think you have to settle on the biblical answer yourself. The sovereignity of God is found throughout all of Scripture. God could not be God if His will was not done. The God in the Bible is not a weak and anemic God in which man’s fee will can overpower God’s sovereign will.
This thinking suffers from black and white thinking. On the contrary, both things are true. God, in his sovereign will, has ordained that His Created ones may choose whether they wish to spend eternity with Him, or apart from Him. This IS His will. Man’s free will does not “overpower” the sovereignty of God, but functions within the parameters God has ordained. Another example of this is the God given ability of man to create. Our ability to create does not “overpower” God’s sovereign will, even when that freedom is abused.
Maybe we should start a thread on the attributes of God according to Scripture revelation alone?
You can do that, 2nd, but if you do, just remember that the Apostles taught us that we are not to extrapolate anything about God from “scripture alone”. The understanding of Scripture always is done within the Teaching given to the Church.
 
This thinking suffers from black and white thinking. On the contrary, both things are true. God, in his sovereign will, has ordained that His Created ones may choose whether they wish to spend eternity with Him, or apart from Him. This IS His will. Man’s free will does not “overpower” the sovereignty of God, but functions within the parameters God has ordained. Another example of this is the God given ability of man to create. Our ability to create does not “overpower” God’s sovereign will, even when that freedom is abused.
A couple of things come to mind. Lazuras was lying dead in the tomb for four days, when Jesus called “Lazuras, come forth”. Did Lazuras have any will to continue lying dead?

Saul’s calling on the road to Damascus, after Paul asked “Who are You?” and the Lord answered “I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom you are persecuting”, immediately Paul asked “What shall I do, Lord?”

Then there is the Apostles themselves, did they choose Christ, or were they chosen by Him?

Then’s there’s Job and Jonah, did Job have any choice in his suffering? How long could have Jonah resisted God’s will?

I think I tend to lean a little more on the side that God’s sovereign will can and does overpower this free will of man whenever He chooses.
 
Didn’t this take place right after the eunuch needed authoritative help in understanding the scriptures? No proof texting Adam. :dts:
I think this happened before the Ethiopian was given the Holy Spirit. God provided the scripture and a Spirit-filled teacher. First the Ethiopian was asked by Philip whether he believed and then acknowledged Christ as Lord and Savior, then he was immediately baptized. Not the water baptism first and then enlightenment.
 
My circle is catholic and universal, those who are united to Christ by faith. Reformed Christians only make a part of the remnant chosen by grace.

Again, how long have you been Catholic Izoid?
One’s catholicity isn’t determined by the duration within the Catholic Church but rather how one is loyal to the Church and her teaching. Tweetymom has been a Catholic a long time but is more Protestant in regards to faith and doctrine. Izoid, maybe a new Catholic but is loyal to the Church. Also, one’s catholicity certainly determined by a Calvinist either.

I agree with Izoid here. You are derailing your own thread in effort to impugn another reputation rather than answer the real questions.
 
This thinking suffers from black and white thinking. On the contrary, both things are true. God, in his sovereign will, has ordained that His Created ones may choose whether they wish to spend eternity with Him, or apart from Him. This IS His will. Man’s free will does not “overpower” the sovereignty of God, but functions within the parameters God has ordained. Another example of this is the God given ability of man to create. Our ability to create does not “overpower” God’s sovereign will, even when that freedom is abused.
I used to believe just like you do in man’s free will in salvation over God’s sovereign will. Most Protestants are Arminian Christians who think just like Catholics do in regards to free will. I have discussed and debated free will with my Arminian brothers for at least 12 years. So, I know it is impossible to support the concept of the sovereignty of man in salvation within Scripture alone when you consider all of Scripture. Would you still like to try? Appealing to extra-biblical revelation does not mean much when trying to debate this issue, for God has spoken authoratively in the Scriptures. Sacred Tradition cannot conflict in what God has revealed in His Sacred Scriptures.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48

For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake, - Philippians 1:29

We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ. For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. - 1 Thes

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” - John 6

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. - Ephesians 1

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. - Rom 8

gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=romans+9&src=esv.org
 
I used to believe just like you do in man’s free will in salvation over God’s sovereign will. Most Protestants are Arminian Christians who think just like Catholics do in regards to free will. I have discussed and debated free will with my Arminian brothers for at least 12 years. So, I know it is impossible to support the concept of the sovereignty of man in salvation within Scripture alone. Would you still like to try? Appealing to extra-biblical revelation does not mean much when trying to debate this issue, for God has spoken authoratively in the Scriptures. Sacred Tradition cannot conflict in what God has revealed in His Sacred Scriptures.

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. - Acts 13:48
God in his sovereignty determined that man would have free will. By using his free will, man isn’t violate God in some way: he’s using the “equipment” already built into his nature by God Himself. Your theology acknowledges this as much in pre-Fall determination and there’s no question if God’s sovereignty is diminished by any staunch Calvinist such as yourself. You’re right that it’s impossible to man’s sovereignty above God’s in light of scripture but that’s not what we Catholic are saying; in other words, you’ve created another straw man.

You never answered this question in the previous thread: If you can acknowledge that Adam and Eve have a free will–created by God himself and his sovereignty wasn’t threatened, why not now?
 
God in his sovereignty determined that man would have free will. By using his free will, man isn’t violate God in some way: he’s using the “equipment” already built into his nature by God Himself. Your theology acknowledges this as much in pre-Fall determination and there’s no question if God’s sovereignty is diminished by any staunch Calvinist such as yourself. You’re right that it’s impossible to man’s sovereignty above God’s in light of scripture but that’s not what we Catholic are saying; in other words, you’ve created another straw man.

You never answered this question in the previous thread: If you can acknowledge that Adam and Eve have a free will–created by God himself and his sovereignty wasn’t threatened, why not now?
When Catholic Christians and Arminian Protestant Christians have a view of free will like yours, all they can do is debate from a philosophical position which is just human reasoning or human wisdom. Until you are willing to test your view in light of all of Scripture, you will continue to use human reasoning over divine revelation on the issue.

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written,

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1

You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. These things I command you, so that you will love one another. “If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. - John 15
 
When Catholic Christians and Arminian Protestant Christians have a view of free will like yours, all they can do is debate from a philosophical position which is just human reasoning or human wisdom. Until you are willing to test your view in light of all of Scripture, you will continue to use human reasoning over divine revelation on the issue.
If your view is so easily refuted in light of logic (and your own admission in the other thread about your own theology which is now synonymous with Scripture and your interpretation claimed to be divine relevation ), do I really need to?
 
If your view is so easily refuted in light of logic (and your own admission in the other thread about your own theology which is now synonymous with Scripture and your interpretation claimed to be divine relevation ), do I really need to?
Mark 13:20
And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days.

Romans 11:28
As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers.

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Titus 1:1
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the sake of the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth, which accords with godliness,

Please try to wrestle with the Scriptures if you really want to debate the sovereignity of man verses the sovereignity of God in salvation.
 
Do a quick comparison between John 3:5 and Titus 3:5. There is a clear threefold parallel in these verses. Look at the cross references also, they make clear that baptism is being referenced here.

Now, what about the other verses?
Paul is teaching Titus about God’s grace that starts way back in chapter 2. The thrust of Pauls teaching is that we are saved by God’s grace, and not at all by any actions on our part. It is not a endorsement of spiritual regeneration gained through baptism, rather about the origin and nature of God’s saving grace. God gave us the regeneration as well as the Holy Spirit to prepare us to serve Him.
 
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