"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

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Originally Posted by zerinus
(MORMOMINISM) That is just plain false. The righteous are spared for their righteousness, not because of an arbitrary decision by God. Noah was spared because he was righteous, the scriptures already cited. The same was true of Lot. Both the Old Testament account and Peter in the New Testament confirm that they were spared because they were found righteous. In the Old Testament Abraham remonstrates with God to spare the entire city for the sake of just a few righteous that may be found in it, and God agrees:
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Dancelittleewok said:
As Guan has corrected to you before: The CC doesn’t believe anyone can be saved only to their merit. Grace is always unmerited. Salvation comes through cooperation with a soul and God.

Back to Adam and Eve…

You said that our humanity is made in fallen Adam’s image but as I’ve said before, God made us with free wills and intellects. Did man “unmake” what God has made by removing free will from his own nature?

Your thoughts…
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Okay for the record, Catholics and Protestants both reject the Mormom posting and belief on personal righteousness of Old Testament Saints as the reason they were saved and reconciled to God.
 
2nd_Adam said:
I would have to strongly disagree. The Catholic Faith is quite complex, requiring years of study and meditation to discern actual true Catholic doctrine. Therefore, Forum sites like Catholic Answers are necessary to answer questions about the Catholic Faith for all Catholics. If Izoid just completed the RCIA classes and became Catholic, he is a new Catholic believer who really has very little credibility in my eyes to defend the Catholic Faith. It is no different than someone who became Reformed (Calvinist) in the last 12 months. He would not be qualified to represent and defend the Reformed Faith. It is the same as Izoid. Maybe Izoid is not an official Catholic member yet, who knows? 🤷 Can someone represent the Catholic Faith and not be a member of the Catholic Church? If you reread my post, I am not making a personal attack, I am just trying to determine if Izoid’s posts to be the official Catholic position of many issues. Why does Catholic Answers have the “ask a Catholic apologist” section, if all Catholic credibility and knowledge are the same?
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Of course you would have to disagree. It is up to you to not only determine who is a Calvinist but now to determine who is qualified to present Catholic beliefs. Since you continue to grossly and purposefully misrepresent those Catholic beliefs you will need to forgive me for finding your determinations completely baseless.

Oh yea, aren’t you, as a protestant, also the ones who get to interpret scripture however you see fit?

I forgot, the Holy Spirit is guiding you in your interpretation. Why is it then, that the Spirit guides so many of you in the protestant denominations to conflicting interpretations?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I would have to strongly disagree. The Catholic Faith is quite complex, requiring years of study and meditation to discern actual true Catholic doctrine. Therefore, Forum sites like Catholic Answers are necessary to answer questions about the Catholic Faith for all Catholics. If Izoid just completed the RCIA classes and became Catholic, he is a new Catholic believer who really has very little credibility in my eyes to defend the Catholic Faith. It is no different than someone who became Reformed (Calvinist) in the last 12 months. He would not be qualified to represent and defend the Reformed Faith. It is the same as Izoid. Maybe Izoid is not an official Catholic member yet, who knows? 🤷 Can someone represent the Catholic Faith and not be a member of the Catholic Church? If you reread my post, I am not making a personal attack, I am just trying to determine if Izoid’s posts to be the official Catholic position of many issues. Why does Catholic Answers have the “ask a Catholic apologist” section, if all Catholic credibility and knowledge are the same?
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In a debating environment, you respond to the arguments that are put forward, not to the supposed or perceived inadequacies of the debater. If the debater is ignorant or uninformed, or not up to the task, you expose that through revealing the fallacies or inadequacies in his arguments, not the other way round. In CAF you respond to posts on the basis of their merits, or the merits of the arguments put forward, not on the supposed inadequacy of the poster. That is the rule of debate in any kind of debating environment. To do otherwise is a dodge.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
See 374. He has told you nothing but orthodox Catholic doctrine. You as a Calvinist really have no ground to question his faith or determine his Catholicity through this ad hominem; it really displays your ignorance of our faith.
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I’m sorry if you see this as a personal issue, because I don’t. I have found that some of the most zealous Catholic defenders on this site are not yet members of the Catholic Church. In their zeal to try to make that transition from Protestantism to Catholicism, they come across with much passion and zeal. However, until a persone actually becomes an actual member of the Catholic Faith, there postings need to read in that light… not yet members of the Catholic Church. I believe Catholics who have been Catholic members for years have better insight of what the Catholic Church really is like in life and doctrine. I believe Guan posted somewhere that he agreed with me that at least 1/2 of the Catholics do not believe all the Catholic Church tells them to believe. For instance, what percentage of Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine change to the actual flesh and blood of Christ? Could also please clarify if only the Priests partake in the wine during the Eucharist too?
 
2nd_Adam said:
Okay for the record, Catholics and Protestants both reject the Mormom posting and belief on personal righteousness of Old Testament Saints as the reason they were saved and reconciled to God.
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You are aware that Zee posted Genesis 6 that “Noah walked with God”?
 
zerinus said:
In a debating environment, you respond to the arguments that are put forward, not to the supposed or perceived inadequacies of the debater. If the debater is ignorant or uninformed, or not up to the task, you expose that through revealing the fallacies or inadequacies in his arguments, not the other way round. In CAF you respond to posts on the basis of their merits, or the merits of the arguments put forward, not on the supposed inadequacy of the poster. That is the rule of debate in any kind of debating environment. To do otherwise is a dodge.
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Would you want a non-Mormom member to represent your Mormon Faith?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I’m sorry if you see this as a personal issue, because I don’t. I have found that some of the most zealous Catholic defenders on this site are not yet members of the Catholic Church. In their zeal to try to make that transition from Protestantism to Catholicism, they come across with much passion and zeal. However, until a persone actually becomes an actual member of the Catholic Faith, there postings need to read in that light… not yet members of the Catholic Church. I believe Catholics who have been Catholic members for years have better insight of what the Catholic Church really is like in life and doctrine. I believe Guan posted somewhere that he agreed with me that at least 1/2 of the Catholics do not believe all the Catholic Church tells them to believe. For instance, what percentage of Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine change to the actual flesh and blood of Christ? Could also please clarify if only the Priests partake in the wine during the Eucharist too?
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Who are you to presume that izoid is in the 50%? See izoid and Zee’s responses.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Do you agree with Zee in his view of the Old Testament saints?
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Meaning your view that personal righteousness means saved by ones own means, then no. Saved by God and man working together, yes.

If all OT saints were damned, what do you think about “Noah walked with God?” Do you disagree with this scripture?
 
izoid said:
Of course you would have to disagree. It is up to you to not only determine who is a Calvinist but now to determine who is qualified to present Catholic beliefs. Since you continue to grossly and purposefully misrepresent those Catholic beliefs you will need to forgive me for finding your determinations completely baseless.

Oh yea, aren’t you, as a protestant, also the ones who get to interpret scripture however you see fit?

I forgot, the Holy Spirit is guiding you in your interpretation. Why is it then, that the Spirit guides so many of you in the protestant denominations to conflicting interpretations?
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Here’s the problem, you attack people like Tweetymom who teaches RCIA and tell them they are not really Catholic. Yet, you refuse to tell us if you are actually a member of the Catholic Church, nor will you disclose how long you have been Catholic. What’s the big deal about sharing with all of us about your spiritual journey. You gave me a lists of the various Protestant churches that you attended. So, when did you actually become a member of the Catholic Church? Have you attended RCIA classes, if so, when did you complete them?
 
2nd_Adam said:
I’m sorry if you see this as a personal issue, because I don’t. I have found that some of the most zealous Catholic defenders on this site are not yet members of the Catholic Church. In their zeal to try to make that transition from Protestantism to Catholicism, they come across with much passion and zeal. However, until a persone actually becomes an actual member of the Catholic Faith, there postings need to read in that light… not yet members of the Catholic Church. I believe Catholics who have been Catholic members for years have better insight of what the Catholic Church really is like in life and doctrine. I believe Guan posted somewhere that he agreed with me that at least 1/2 of the Catholics do not believe all the Catholic Church tells them to believe. For instance, what percentage of Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine change to the actual flesh and blood of Christ? Could also please clarify if only the Priests partake in the wine during the Eucharist too?
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So, are you saying that a person needs to have a certain amount of time in their faith before they are capable of debating with you.

I think I have held my own quite well, often times presenting your argument before you did. You see Adam, I come from a place very similar to where you are. I am well trained in the use of your “proof texts” and tactics. The difference is, I saw past the tactics and looked to the inability to answer the true questions. If my faith as a protestant was right, why couldn’t I answer a Catholics simple inquiry to several verses? Why was I trained and why did I train others to make the opponent, whether Catholic, Mormon of JW read my verses? Why did we need to refuse to answer their questions only to insist they answer ours? Why did I shove a Bible in front of them and ask them to find what I wanted them to read?

The answer is because neither I, nor protestantism, have any answers. It is necessary to isolate scripture to support our view. We could not look at it as a whole and embrace a holistic theology. It really is quite sad because many people who truly love God have cut themselves off from the graces that He wants to share.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Okay for the record, Catholics and Protestants both reject the Mormom posting and belief on personal righteousness of Old Testament Saints as the reason they were saved and reconciled to God.
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Mormons believe that man is saved through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Dancelittleewok said:
Meaning your view that personal righteousness means saved by ones own means, then no. Saved by God and man working together, yes.

If all OT saints were damned, what do you think about “Noah walked with God?” Do you disagree with this scripture?
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What are you talking about OT saints being damned? The remnant chosen by grace probably started with Adam and Eve, but we know God saved Abel. Please look at Hebrews 11 to get an idea which saints in the Old Testament who are part of the body of Christ. Of course, there are other Old Testaments saints not in Hebrews 11 that are part of the body of Christ. There was a remnant chosen by grace throughout the Old Testament.
 
2nd_Adam said:
Here’s the problem, you attack people like Tweetymom who teaches RCIA and tell them they are not really Catholic. Yet, you refuse to tell us if you are actually a member of the Catholic Church, nor will you disclose how long you have been Catholic. What’s the big deal about sharing with all of us about your spiritual journey. You gave me a lists of the various Protestant churches that you attended. So, when did you actually become a member of the Catholic Church? Have you attended RCIA classes, if so, when did you complete them?
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Quite the “refusal” back in 374…

Izoid:
I hope you are ready to eat some crow. I was confirmed in the Catholic Church on April 6, 1996 at OLPH n Scottsdale, AZ.
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So much for your “theories”.
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Care to apologize to Izoid for slandering him?
 
2nd_Adam said:
Here’s the problem, you attack people like Tweetymom who teaches RCIA and tell them they are not really Catholic. Yet, you refuse to tell us if you are actually a member of the Catholic Church, nor will you disclose how long you have been Catholic. What’s the big deal about sharing with all of us about your spiritual journey. You gave me a lists of the various Protestant churches that you attended. So, when did you actually become a member of the Catholic Church? Have you attended RCIA classes, if so, when did you complete them?
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I said that Tweety’s doctrine and moral beliefs are not consistent with the Catholic Church and I stand by that.

If you would read your own thread, post 374, you would have already seen my answer.
 
izoid said:
I said that Tweety’s doctrine and moral beliefs are not consistent with the Catholic Church and I stand by that.

If you would read your own thread, post 374, you would have already seen my answer.
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Izoid,

I don’t even think you are an official member of the Catholic Church.
 
Rocket_Man said:
I used to fall asleep at night with my arms wrapped around the book as if it were my mother.
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:eek: Doesn’t that seem dangerously close to Bibliolatry to you?

I dunno. I’m willing to be convinced otherwise. 🤷

It just seems like Catholics get accused of breaking the 1st commandment for much much less!
 
2nd_Adam said:
Do Catholics believe like Mormons? It appears Izoid the LDS believer is saying that Old Testament saints were saved by God based on their own personal righteousness. When you look at the lives of the Hall of Fame Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11, you will find that if God judged them by their own personal righteousness, you will find them to be sinners deserving the eternal wrath of God for their sins.
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Answer my earlier question. Why are you calling me an LDS believer?
 
2nd_Adam said:
Izoid,

I don’t even think you are an official member of the Catholic Church.
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I feel so sorry for you Adam. You cannot even defend your own faith so you feel the need to question those who can. You are on the brink of, or already have, loosing all credibility.

I guess I could fax you my confirmation certificate in order to prove my worthiness to debate you but that would probably be going a bit too far don’t you think?

Why can you not answer the questions that you have been asked. Why turn it around to a personal attack on the individual asking the question?
 
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