"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[zerinus]

Would you want a non-Mormom member to represent your Mormon Faith?

I would have no problem with that if he knew his stuff and put forward sound arguments. I would judge him on the basis of his posts and arguments, not the other way round. In any case, if izoid is doing a bad job of representing Catholicism, it is up to the Catholics to correct him. If they have no problem with his posts or arguments, who are you to object?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Doesn’t that seem dangerously close to Bibliolatry to you?

When you love your Father, you desire to hear what He has to tell you, for they are Words of Life, Why do you hate God’s word so much?

 

[zerinus]

You are aware that Zee posted Genesis 6 that “Noah walked with God”?

There were many in the Old Testament who were approved of God because of their personal righteousness, probably the best example being Job:

Job 1:

8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Job 2:

3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
6 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.
7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the Lord, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job 42:

7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.
8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

So it looks like Job’s personal righteousness had something to do with his salvation.

 

[zerinus]

Do you agree with Zee in his view of the Old Testament saints?

What view of Old Testament saints?

 

[PRmerger]

When you love your Father, you desire to hear what He has to tell you, for they are Words of Life, Why do you hate God’s word so much?

Ah! But, Rocket, the Words of Life are NOT the same as the Father.

See, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but, it seems, you confirmed my fears, Rocket. The BIBLE is not the equivalent to God. THAT, Sir, is Bibliolatry.:tsktsk:

 

[guanophore]

Do Catholics believe like Mormons? It appears Izoid the LDS believer is saying that Old Testament saints were saved by God based on their own personal righteousness. When you look at the lives of the Hall of Fame Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11, you will find that if God judged them by their own personal righteousness, you will find them to be sinners deserving the eternal wrath of God for their sins.

Yes and no. Catholics believe that no one can be saved by their own personal righteousness. However, we believe, unlike the Reformed tradition, that God is seeking relationship with the crown of His creation. He pours out His grace, and those who respond by faith, He makes righteous. This is the case with the patriarchs and all those in Heb. 11. All were saved by grace, through faith, and not of themselves. Yet, all were made righteous by grace through faith (as opposed to just “declared” righteous). God does judge us by our actions, and those actions demonstrate the condition of our hearts toward Him. Good trees produce good fruit.

 

[zerinus]

Here’s the problem, you attack people like Tweetymom who teaches RCIA and tell them they are not really Catholic. Yet, you refuse to tell us if you are actually a member of the Catholic Church, nor will you disclose how long you have been Catholic. What’s the big deal about sharing with all of us about your spiritual journey. You gave me a lists of the various Protestant churches that you attended. So, when did you actually become a member of the Catholic Church? Have you attended RCIA classes, if so, when did you complete them?

He has done the right thing to not answer that question. If you asked me that question I would not answer it. You have no right to ask that question from anybody, and no one has an obligation to answer it. You debate with people on the merits of their arguments, nothing more or less. If you asked me that question the answer you would get is: “None of your business! Address the issues if you can!”

 

[izoid]

He has done the right thing to not answer that question. If you asked me that question I would not answer it. You have no right to ask that question from anybody, and no one has an obligation to answer it. You debate with people on the merits of their arguments, nothing more or less. If you asked me that question the answer you would get is: “None of your business! Address the issues if you can!”

Thanks Zee. I have answered him and his only response was that he doesn’t believe me.

It is quite sad to see how some people react when their arguments fall apart. Instead of studying and discovering the truth they find it easier to make false accusations. Their slanderous attempts to discredit one by making false claims against them only proves that their arguments are built on sand.

 

[zerinus]

Yes and no. Catholics believe that no one can be saved by their own personal righteousness. However, we believe, unlike the Reformed tradition, that God is seeking relationship with the crown of His creation. He pours out His grace, and those who respond by faith, He makes righteous. This is the case with the patriarchs and all those in Heb. 11. All were saved by grace, through faith, and not of themselves. Yet, all were made righteous by grace through faith (as opposed to just “declared” righteous). God does judge us by our actions, and those actions demonstrate the condition of our hearts toward Him. Good trees produce good fruit.

We believe that man is saved by the Atonement of Jesus Christ through repentance and faith in His name. This is true of the Old Testament prophets and Patriarchs as well as of the New Testament saints. There is no distinction between the mode of salvation for either group.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Ah! But, Rocket, the Words of Life are NOT the same as the Father.

See, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but, it seems, you confirmed my fears, Rocket. The BIBLE is not the equivalent to God. THAT, Sir, is Bibliolatry.:tsktsk:

Ah! But I never said they were the Father. I said they were the Father’s words. How can you love God and not love His word? You have yet to answer why you hate His Word? David loved His Word! Could it be that the Love of God is not in you?

 

[izoid]

Ah! But I never said they were the Father. I said they were the Father’s words. You have yet to answer why you hate His Word.

Here we go…I don’t recall anyone ever saying that they hate His Word, do you?

 

[izoid]

Izoid,

I don’t even think you are an official member of the Catholic Church.

So, do you think I am a protestant defending Catholic beliefs?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Answer my earlier question. Why are you calling me an LDS believer?

Sorry, correct made below:

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Do Catholics believe like Mormons? It appears Zerinus the LDS believer is saying that Old Testament saints were saved by God based on their own personal righteousness. When you look at the lives of the Hall of Fame Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11, you will find that if God judged them by their own personal righteousness, you will find them to be sinners deserving the eternal wrath of God for their sins.

 

[izoid]

Sorry, correct made below:

Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

 

[PRmerger]

Ah! But I never said they were the Father. I said they were the Father’s words. How can you love God and not love His word? You have yet to answer why you hate His Word?Could it be that the Love of God is not in you?

I stand corrected then, Rocket. I just hope you do not fall into the trap of worshipping the Bible–kissing it, kneeling before it–THAT should be reserved for God alone.

As for my “hating His Word”–

 

[2nd_Adam]

So, do you think I am a protestant defending Catholic beliefs?

I have no idea if you are a Catholic member or not. I have found several people on Catholic Answers who were staunch defenders of the Catholic Faith while still being members of a Protestant Church. They were trying to convince themselves on Catholic Answers to make that transition.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Here we go…I don’t recall anyone ever saying that they hate His Word, do you?

Your spear arrived because it was tossed by your heart.

Jonathan threw the spear to warn David of Saul’s decision. You, on the otherhand threw the spear to kill.

 

[izoid]

I have no idea if you are a Catholic member or not. I have found several people on Catholic Answers who were staunch defenders of the Catholic Faith while still being members of a Protestant Church. They were trying to convince themselves on Catholic Answers to make that transition.

I guess you could always contact the phoenix Archdiocese to confirm my information. Seems a bit paranoid but whatever floats your boat Adam.

 

[izoid]

Your spear arrived because it was tossed by your heart.

Huh?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

I broke my own rule and started to discuss things with Zerinus which makes everything more confusing. I think I should listen to my own OP, and not discuss things with Zerinus because he makes everything more confusing being a staunch Mormon.