"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[izoid]

I have no idea if you are a Catholic member or not. I have found several people on Catholic Answers who were staunch defenders of the Catholic Faith while still being members of a Protestant Church. They were trying to convince themselves on Catholic Answers to make that transition.

Are you sure that is not what you are doing? After all, you follow Augustine.

 

[2nd_Adam]

I guess you could always contact the phoenix Archdiocese to confirm my information. Seems a bit paranoid but whatever floats your boat Adam.

I just asked a valid question, how long have you been member of the Catholic Church? Your unwilling to answer a basic question leaves you suspect, something to hide or something.

 

[guanophore]

I would have to strongly disagree.  The Catholic Faith is quite complex, requiring years of study and meditation to discern actual true Catholic doctrine.

No, 2nd, it is actually quite simple. It is contained within the creeds. Now, I will agree that it does take a long time to absorb 2000 years of history, and I don’t know of any Catholics who have really been able to master all of it. It is a rich faith tradition. One enters the Catholic faith just like they enter one of the denominations, by profession of faith. People often come as babes, and grow in the faith. Our separated brethren tend to be more well researched in scripture and have developed some significant spiritual disciplines that tend to make their growth faster. Fasting and prayer is like putting fertilizer on the plants!

Therefore, Forum sites like Catholic Answers are necessary to answer questions about the Catholic Faith for all Catholics.

2nd, this is just a baseless accusation with no merit. Perhaps you are trying to make it sound like it is just too difficult to become Catholic?

People have been entering the Catholic Church and growing in faith for 2000 years, and we have only had the ability for such web sites for this last decade. Furher, this site is for people like yourself, who come from faith traditions that have departed from the Apostolic Teachings. I agree that many Catholics learn a lot here (I am wone of them), but to suggest that CAF is “necessary” for people to learn the Catholic faith is just not true.

The original Catholics learned the faith just fine from the Apostles.

No web sites.

 If Izoid just completed the RCIA classes and became Catholic, he is a new Catholic believer who really has very little credibility in my eyes to defend the Catholic Faith.

It is sad that you would take this prejudicial approach. I guess you are responding a lot like the Apostles, though, who did not accept that Paul could be trusted after He came to the Lord. We see where that got them.

It is no different than someone who became Reformed (Calvinist) in the last 12 months. He would not be qualified to represent and defend the Reformed Faith.

I did not know there was such a long training period.

Can someone present the Catholic Faith and not be a member of the Catholic Church?

Absolutely! I have had many non-Catholics do a better job of it than Catholics can. Zerinius has given you some excellent Catholic points, and is clearl not Catholic.

If you reread my post, I am not making a personal attack, I am just trying to determine if Izoid’s posts to be the official Catholic position of many issues. Why does Catholic Answers have the “ask a Catholic apologist” section, if all Catholic credibility and knowledge are the same?

It is personal, 2nd, as you have just explained that you think he may not be qualified to defend the faith. My objection to your demands is that there is a rule here at CAF that personal information like that is not to be solicited or demanded. I found your question out of order.

I agree, though, not all Catholics have the same credibiliity and knowledge. There are some people on here who call themselves Catholic, yet openly deny the Catholic faith. That is pretty non-credible.

 

[izoid]

I just asked a valid question, how long have you been member of the Catholic Church? Your unwilling to answer a basic question leaves you suspect, something to hide or something.

Look, I responded and several posts since then have directed you to that post, #374. Are you simply not reading it because you are afraid to be proven wrong? What gives here Adam?

 

[zerinus]

i broke my own rule and started to discuss things with zerinus which makes everything more confusing. I think i should listen to my own op, and not discuss things with zerinus because he makes everything more confusing being a staunch mormon.

You do give me a good laugh from time to time!

 

[guanophore]

I find your phrase “guickly got bored” quite puzzling when earlier it was stated you were “spiritually starving”. I recall when I began to read the Bible it consumed me night and day. I used to fall asleep at night with my arms wrapped around the book as if it were my mother.

You have to admit, the begats are not necessaritly the most thrilling. Later, when I received instruction from Baptists, adn started with John, things went a lot better.

It was really my love of scripture that pulled me out of the catholic Church. I wanted to learn Greek, so I spent three years in a Protestant Seminary. I came out of there a lot more Catholic than I was when I went in!

In all your life experiences in different walks, did you ever come to a complete understanding of your depravity before Him and repent of your sins?

No. After extensive study in historical theology, I realized that the doctrien of total depravity was not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching. However, I did develop a life of repentance, and have daily learned to repent of sins,a nd turn to Him.

I believe that a person who has recieved the Holy Spirit is, by the very nature of His person, actively engaged in the same ministries:

You mean, the same ministries as the HS? If so, I agree.

So, because I or my sister wasn’t even aware of any of these, I have a hard time believing that Spirit was living within us.

The Apostles taught that mortal sin squelches the spirit that God has made to live inside us. This is how Catholics undertsand being in a state of Grace.When one recieves the Spirit, adn walks with Him, one is in right relationship with God. After receiving the Spirit, if one ceases to walk with God, one spurns the blood that bought him, and is no longer in right relationship with God. This is why Catholics have the sacrament of reconciliation, rather than repeated altar calls. It seems like Reformed Christians are led to beleive that, if they sin after coming to Christ, then they are not really Christians, as “true believers” don’ t do those things. Their salvation is called into question, and they keep having to go back and get saved again.

I did it myself for a number of years.

 

[guanophore]

The righteous are spared for their righteousness, not because of an arbitrary decision by God. Noah was spared because he was righteous, the scriptures already cited. The same was true of Lot. Both the Old Testament account and Peter in the New Testament confirm that they were spared because they were found righteous. In the Old Testament Abraham remonstrates with God to spare the entire city for the sake of just a few righteous that may be found in it, and God agrees:

Okay for the record, Catholics and Protestants both reject the Mormom posting and belief on personal righteousness of Old Testament Saints as the reason they were saved and reconciled to God.

Zerinius is paraphrasing the scriptures here, and doing so correctly, 2nd. God took the actions He did toward His chosen because they were righteous.

 

[guanophore]

I’m sorry if you see this as a personal issue, because I don’t. I have found that some of the most zealous Catholic defenders on this site are not yet members of the Catholic Church. In their zeal to try to make that transition from Protestantism to Catholicism, they come across with much passion and zeal. However, until a persone actually becomes an actual member of the Catholic Faith, there postings need to read in that light… not yet members of the Catholic Church.

It is sad that you feel a need to pidgeonhole people this way.

I see some very Catholic posts from non-Catholics, including some by yourself, that I have had no trouble affirming. Catholicity is not determined by one’s name on a membership roster of a parish somewhere. Some of our separated brethren are better qualified to defend their faith than most cradle Catholics. I do see it as personal. You seem unable to respond to the merits of the post, maybe because you have nothing to say? Maybe you wanted to sway Iziod back to being a “bible christian” after his infatuation wore off?

 I believe Catholics who have been Catholic members for years have better insight of what the Catholic Church really is like in life and doctrine.

I only wish this were true! :dts:

Unfortunately the vast majority of American Catholics have not taken any responsibility for learning their faith, which is why they behave so badly.

I believe Guan posted somewhere that he agreed with me that at least 1/2 of the Catholics do not believe all the Catholic Church tells them to believe. For instance, what percentage of Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine change to the actual flesh and blood of Christ? Could also please clarify if only the Priests partake in the wine during the Eucharist too?

I have never measured it, I am sure som emeasurements have been done. We can see by the state of our society and politics that Catholics are not living out their faith.

There is no wine left after the consecration for the priest, or anyone else to partake of at all.

 

[guanophore]

Would you want a non-Mormom member to represent your Mormon Faith?

A good debator should be able to represent his opponents position as well as his own.

Do you agree with Zee in his view of the Old Testament saints?

Probably not, but the portion posted did not contain anything inconsistent with the Apostolic Teaching.

Meaning your view that personal righteousness means saved by ones own means, then no. Saved by God and man working together, yes.

If all OT saints were damned, what do you think about “Noah walked with God?” Do you disagree with this scripture?

I don’t agree with 2nd’s characterization of it as "personal righteousness’. It implies that their righteousness came from themselves, rather than from God.

This is a good point to, about people being righteous, then later not behaving righteously. God did save Noah by grace, through faith, but after the flood, he did not conduct himself righteously.

Here’s the problem, you attack people like Tweetymom who teaches RCIA and tell them they are not really Catholic.

2nd, no one here has "attacked " Tweetymom. We have consistely expressed our concern over her causing a public scandal, and putting a stumbling block in front of our separated brethren, such as yourself. She has apparently duped you into thinking that a person can be Catholic while rejecting the teachings of the Church.

There are non-Catholics who teach portions of RCIA. It sounds like she is one of them. She teaches the parts about which she has special expertise,and is appropriately shepherded by her pastor, so that she will not lead the faithful into the heresies she embraces.

 Yet, you refuse to tell us if you are actually a member of the Catholic Church, nor will you disclose how long you have been Catholic.

This is an inappropriate line of questioning for any member of CAF. People are not encouraged or requried to provide this kind of personal information, and your persistent demand for it is a violation of the forum rules.

 What's the big deal about sharing with all of us about your spiritual journey. /QUOTE]

I think you answered this yourself, by giving your defense of how you would disregard the answer of a person who did not meet your criteria.

 

[guanophore]

Mormons believe that man is saved through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.

It appears that 2nd is quite invested in misrepresenting perspectives other than his own.

 

[guanophore]

Izoid,

I don’t even think you are an official member of the Catholic Church.

2nd, these kind of personal assessments are off topic, and not conducive to productive discussion. I guess Izoid really has you back on your heels, since you cannot seem to focus on the topic.

Perhaps you are torqued with him because he has not responded well to your evangelistic efforts?

 

[guanophore]

You’ve asked me enough questions. Why not Adam and Eve? Did total depravity “unmake” God’s own creation by depriving humanity of their own God created free wills?

Yeah, I am looking forward to this answer also. how did the image of Himself that God gave Adam “disappear”?

 

[guanophore]

So, do you think I am a protestant defending Catholic beliefs?

In one of his posts, he referred to you as “LDS”. I guess you are guilty by association?

 

[guanophore]

I have no idea if you are a Catholic member or not. I have found several people on Catholic Answers who were staunch defenders of the Catholic Faith while still being members of a Protestant Church. They were trying to convince themselves on Catholic Answers to make that transition.

This alone should pursuade you that pidgeonholing people in order to have a productive discussion is not necessary.

I just read your correction of your post, thanks. I did not think Iziod was LDS.

 

[guanophore]

I broke my own rule and started to discuss things with Zerinus which makes everything more confusing. I think I should listen to my own OP, and not discuss things with Zerinus because he makes everything more confusing being a staunch Mormon.

This surprises me, 2nd. I would not expect a person firm in his fiath woudl becomje so easily ocnfused by someone who believes differently. Have you considered that maybe you are the one that is not adequately formed in his faith to engage in these debates? Maybe you should take off a year for some spiritual growth?

 

[guanophore]

I just asked a valid question, how long have you been member of the Catholic Church? Your unwilling to answer a basic question leaves you suspect, something to hide or something.

2nd, it is against forum rules to solicit personal information from other members. It is also inappropriate to make accusations about them when they refuse to provide it This could be interpreted as a form of coercion or intimidation. I don’t think you want that kind of reputation around here, do you?

Are you sure that is not what you are doing? After all, you follow Augustine.

He does not really “follow” or he would be Catholic, as Auggie is. Instead, he reads Auggie the way he does scripture. He picks and chooses the parts that support his theology,an d leaves out the rest.

 

[Rocket_Man]

No. After extensive study in historical theology, I realized that the doctrien of total depravity was not consistent with the Apostolic Teaching. However, I did develop a life of repentance, and have daily learned to repent of sins, and turn to Him.

“In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the LORD sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.”

I on the otherhand, read Issiah. And what Issiah saw, I hear. Because I hear the same thunder, lightning, the sound of the trumpet, and smoke to where it is written “To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.” And to where they told Moses, “Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

I hear Issiah when he says “mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts”. And I hear Issiah seeing His righteous Glory, and the angels crying “Holy Holy Holy”, so much in fact that he is convinced of his own absolute depravity before the King and screams out, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips.

In the same way, unless you can see the same fullness of God’s glory in the sprinkling of Jesus’s blood on the alter, you will continue to reckon yourself worthy to recieve it.

“And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”

 

[tweetymom]

I said that Tweety’s doctrine and moral beliefs are not consistent with the Catholic Church and I stand by that.

If you would read your own thread, post 374, you would have already seen my answer.

Thank you too for your most gracious post. One thing you do not know one thing about my morals. Glad that you can stand for something.

 

[guanophore]

I on the otherhand, read Issiah. And what Issiah saw, I hear. Because I hear the same thunder, lightning, the sound of the trumpet, and smoke to where it is written “To the Israelites the glory of the LORD looked like a consuming fire on top of the mountain.” And to where they told Moses, “Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.”

I hear Issiah when he says “mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of Hosts”. And I hear Issiah seeing His righteous Glory, and the angels crying “Holy Holy Holy”, so much in fact that he is convinced of his own absolute depravity before the King and screams out, "Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips.

In the same way, unless you can see the same fullness of God’s glory in the sprinkling of Jesus’s blood on the alter, you will continue to reckon yourself worthy to recieve it.

Perhaps you misunderstood me, Rocket. My denial of the heretical doctrine of total depravity does not equate to an inability to recognize the transcendent glory of God, and my inability to come to Him without His cleansing grace. To have unclean lips does not mean that the image of God in which man was made has been “removed”, as 2nd has postulated here.

“And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.”

I am not sure if you think that I don’t know that I am saved by the blood of the Lamb, or what?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Perhaps you misunderstood me, Rocket. My denial of the heretical doctrine of total depravity does not equate to an inability to recognize the transcendent glory of God, and my inability to come to Him without His cleansing grace. To have unclean lips does not mean that the image of God in which man was made has been “removed”, as 2nd has postulated here.

I am not sure if you think that I don’t know that I am saved by the blood of the Lamb, or what?

Let’s get back on track again. I stated that we were made in the image of the fallen Adam. You said that belief is a departure from Apostolic teaching. I gave you the following Scirpture:

This is the book of the generations of Adam. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Male and female he created them, and he blessed them and named them Man when they were created. When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

Do you want to admit that you were wrong, and move on?