"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[izoid]

You do seem to be assigning malicious motives to God. God gave man the power to procreate. It is man who brings them into this world, then parents who fail to raise them in such a manner that they love and serve God.

I think this is a very important point. Calvinist’s believe that all are totally depraved, regardless of upbringing. Their view of God paints a picture that lead to your premise, that God has malicious motives, which we know He does not.

 

[izoid]

Whatever you mean by that?

I do not remeber Christ ever teaching, “what comes around goes around”.

I do, however, remeber something about turning the other cheeck.

 

[Cr8ton]

You are right about who we proclaim, Cr8ton, the difference lies in how we understand Church. the Apostles taught that the Church is the Bride of Christ, that He is her Head, and that she is inseparable from Him. The Church, as His Body, is the fullness of “all in all”. The Church has two divine elements, the Head, who is Christ, and the Soul, which is the HS. Without these divine elements, the Church does not exist. The Church also contains all those saints who have go on before us to their heavenly reward.

The modern deficient view of the Church as “the body of believers on earth” does not have scriptural support, and explains why so many have such a low view of the Church.

Eph 5:26 "…Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

For Catholics, the Church is sanctified, cleansed (by Christ), splendid, without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing. She is holy, as He is holy, and therefore can only lead to Him.

The shortcomings are found, not in the Holy Bride, but in the fallible men who are joined to her. It is they who are in need of Reform, not the Church. this is demonstrated in the letters of Revelation, where Jesus warns the individuals in the Churches about the consequences of sin.

I agree with all that you said and I too hold a high view of the Church. The only difference I see in our views is what dictates “the Church”. your view holds to the Catholic Church being the true visible Church of Christ. Where as I see all human beings whom the Holy Spirit indwells is part of the Church, visible AND invisible. I believe churchs outside of the Catholic Church also have people who are part of the Church simply because they are born again. It doesn’t make them any less than the ones who are part of the body within the CC.

 

[izoid]

I agree with all that you said and I too hold a high view of the Church. The only difference I see in our views is what dictates “the Church”. your view holds to the Catholic Church being the true visible Church of Christ. Where as I see all human beings whom the Holy Spirit indwells is part of the Church, visible AND invisible. I believe churchs outside of the Catholic Church also have people who are part of the Church simply because they are born again. It doesn’t make them any less than the ones who are part of the body within the CC.

Do you adhere to the belief that Christ established a physical church here on earth?

 

[tweetymom]

I do not remeber Christ ever teaching, “what comes around goes around”.

I do, however, remeber something about turning the other cheeck.

How about reap what you sow. I think I have turned the other cheek and I do that when I thank all for all that has been said. So thank you too.

 

[izoid]

How about reap what you sow. I think I have turned the other cheek and I do that when I thank all for all that has been said. So thank you too.

You seem to take things very personally Tweety. My post was directed at Adam and you have somehow made it about you. You can argue for him all you want but throughout these boards his reputation is that of a divisive, arrogant and dishonest person. hardly the type of person you should be defending.

 

[tweetymom]

You seem to take things very personally Tweety. My post was directed at Adam and you have somehow made it about you. You can argue for him all you want but throughout these boards his reputation is that of a divisive, arrogant and dishonest person. hardly the type of person you should be defending.

I take nothing personally, if I did I would tell a lot of people were to head to. I will defend Adam cause he is my brother in Christ as well as my friend.

 

[coracobb]

Do you adhere to the belief that Christ established a physical church here on earth?

Anyone who believes in Christ and has been baptised has the Holy Spirit. I am a Protestant convert and when I went through RCIA I was taught that since I was already baptised and had lived a Christian life for many years before coming to the church that I also had the Holy Spirit living in me. I already knew that but I now know that The Catholic Faith has finished my Christian walk. By that I mean that Catholics can and many do live a much richer Christain life because of the sacraments and teachings of the Church. I hope that makes sense to you.

Cora

 

[izoid]

Anyone who believes in Christ and has been baptised has the Holy Spirit. I am a Protestant convert and when I went through RCIA I was taught that since I was already baptised and had lived a Christian life for many years before coming to the church that I also had the Holy Spirit living in me. I already knew that but I now know that The Catholic Faith has finished my Christian walk. By that I mean that Catholics can and many do live a much richer Christain life because of the sacraments and teachings of the Church. I hope that makes sense to you.

Cora

Are you saying that anyone who has been baptized is part of the physical church?

 

[ryanoneil]

Okay, if a child is adopted into the family of God, He never loses His sonship when he drifts away.

I agree.

In another words, an adopted child of God based on the behavior of our Elder brother never goes from the kingdom of light to the kingdom of darkness because our citizenship in the kingdom of God is based on the person and work of Jesus Christ alone. Do you agree?

I disagree.

Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live and we hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Salvation is not a certainty by our own choosing (not by God’s doing)

 

[Cr8ton]

Anyone who believes in Christ and has been baptised has the Holy Spirit. I am a Protestant convert and when I went through RCIA I was taught that since I was already baptised and had lived a Christian life for many years before coming to the church that I also had the Holy Spirit living in me. I already knew that but I now know that The Catholic Faith has finished my Christian walk. By that I mean that Catholics can and many do live a much richer Christain life because of the sacraments and teachings of the Church. I hope that makes sense to you.

Cora

I have never been baptized by water… but I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Himself changing my allegiance from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light.

I’m curious how many people who read this would judge the validity of my salvation. I would pray and hope none, but sadly I don’t feel that would be the case. I know God has confirmed His Spirit within me and my sonship. My life is hidden away with Christ

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of works, including baptism by water.

please note I am not saying we shouldn’t get baptized in water, just that it is not a necessity for the salvation of ones soul.

 

[tweetymom]

I have never been baptized by water… but I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Himself changing my allegiance from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light.

I’m curious how many people who read this would judge the validity of my salvation. I would pray and hope none, but sadly I don’t feel that would be the case. I know God has confirmed His Spirit within me and my sonship. My life is hidden away with Christ

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of works, including baptism by water.

please note I am not saying we shouldn’t get baptized in water, just that it is not a necessity for the salvation of ones soul.

Unlike most here I would never judge your salvation. God Bless you in your journey with our Savior.

 

[Cr8ton]

Unlike most here I would never judge your salvation. God Bless you in your journey with our Savior.

Thank you my dear sister in Christ. God bless yours as well.

 

[ryanoneil]

I have never been baptized by water… but I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Himself changing my allegiance from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light.

I’m curious how many people who read this would judge the validity of my salvation. I would pray and hope none, but sadly I don’t feel that would be the case. I know God has confirmed His Spirit within me and my sonship. My life is hidden away with Christ

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of works, including baptism by water.

please note I am not saying we shouldn’t get baptized in water, just that it is not a necessity for the salvation of ones soul.

I wouldn’t judge you because it is not my job. I would point out that Paul is talking about “works of the law” in the verses you cite. He is not speaking about works done in grace. Good works in a system of grace are necessary for our salvation per Eph 2:10. Jesus looks at our actions, not just our faith. Be sure you don’t change your allegience through your actions.

**For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)

For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. (Mat 16:27)

who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. (Rom 2:6-8)

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)**

 

[guanophore]

Well…that is a Christ like attitude. What double standards he must have.

I think that many members here have objected to Tweety’s representation of herself as Catholic, though she openly rejects Catholic teaching and doctrine. She has taken this very personally, and gotten very defensive about i.

 

[guanophore]

I agree with all that you said and I too hold a high view of the Church. The only difference I see in our views is what dictates “the Church”. your view holds to the Catholic Church being the true visible Church of Christ. Where as I see all human beings whom the Holy Spirit indwells is part of the Church, visible AND invisible. I believe churchs outside of the Catholic Church also have people who are part of the Church simply because they are born again. It doesn’t make them any less than the ones who are part of the body within the CC.

I don’t think we have a difference of views on this. The Catholic Church acknowledges that there are members who are not visible as part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ. He only founded One. He only has One Body.

 

[guanophore]

How about reap what you sow. I think I have turned the other cheek and I do that when I thank all for all that has been said. So thank you too.

This is good, that you are trying to keep all that hostility in check.

Unfortunately, you are turning your cheek at the same time you are closing your eyes and stopping up your ears, so that your brothers and sisters are unable to reach you with their grave concerns. Scripture directs us, when we have something against another, to go to them, and tell them. This is difficult in your case, because you have no opening into which we can speak the words.

 

[guanophore]

I have never been baptized by water.. but I have been baptized in the Holy Spirit by Jesus Himself changing my allegiance from the kingdom of darkness to the Kingdom of Light.

I’m curious how many people who read this would judge the validity of my salvation. I would pray and hope none, but sadly I don’t feel that would be the case. I know God has confirmed His Spirit within me and my sonship. My life is hidden away with Christ

You seem to be standing in the tradition of Apollos, who was fervent within the degree of truth he had received, though it was limited.

If we look at the actions of the teaching authority toward Apollos, we see what an appreciation for the proper respons. I hope that you are open to such instruction.

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of works, including baptism by water.

Baptism is not a “work” of the kind Paul is referring Cr8ton. You were misinformed. I have a question for you. If Jesus put mud on your eyes, and told you to wash in a pool, and you regained your sight, would you say that following HIs direction was a “work” that “made” you see?

please note I am not saying we shouldn’t get baptized in water, just that it is not a necessity for the salvation of ones soul.

My question would be, why do you refuse the commandment of Christ? Even if you have not yet received the Apostolic teaching on Baptism, what would make you think that what was good enough for Jesus is not good enough for you?

 

[guanophore]

Unlike most here I would never judge your salvation. God Bless you in your journey with our Savior.

This “holier than thou” attitude does not glorify god, Tweety. No one has judged your salvation, either. I think it is quite clear to everyone who has read your posts that you love the Lord, and consider yourself to have an intimate relationship with Him. What confuses many of us is, how you can claim this, and misrepresent His Holy Bride, the Church. You are claiming to be something you are not. Saved people do that all the time! The Apostles did it too, and disclaimed that which they WERE (followers of Him).

 

[coracobb]

Are you saying that anyone who has been baptized is part of the physical church?

Hi izoid,

There is a baptism of blood CC 1258 Baptism of desire 1259 and 1260.

cc 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Since I had already been Baptised and as best as I could I was living a Christian life as a Protestant I didn’t need Baptism again but needed to be taught the faith and brought into the Church and have the Eucharistic Communion which was a glorious experience for me. I had recieved communion in years past but saw it as symbolic therefore as was Protestant Baptism. Now I know that neither is symbolic but neded for salvation. I had already participated in them therefore I was already a part of the Church. If I had strayed I could have lost that salvation but confession and reparation would have resored me to the Church.

Read cc1262 that may help you understand what I am trying to say.

Sorry for being so long winded here.

God Bless

Cora