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Dancelittleewok
Guest
Cora, were you baptized using “In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”?
"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.
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izoid
Guest
I think we are mixing terms when we speak. When I refer to the physical church, or visable church, I am referring to the Catholic Curch. When I say invisible church, or spiritual church, I am referring to all believers. I believe that those who are baptized and continue to worship in the protestant church may be members of the invisible church but not the visible church.Hi izoid,
There is a baptism of blood CC 1258 Baptism of desire 1259 and 1260.
cc 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of His Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Since I had already been Baptised and as best as I could I was living a Christian life as a Protestant I didn’t need Baptism again but needed to be taught the faith and brought into the Church and have the Eucharistic Communion which was a glorious experience for me. I had recieved communion in years past but saw it as symbolic therefore as was Protestant Baptism. Now I know that neither is symbolic but neded for salvation. I had already participated in them therefore I was already a part of the Church. If I had strayed I could have lost that salvation but confession and reparation would have resored me to the Church.
Read cc1262 that may help you understand what I am trying to say.
Sorry for being so long winded here.
God Bless
Cora
God established the Catholic Curch as His visible, physical, church. Protestants do not believe this.
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coracobb
Guest
Yes, in a Baptist church by the Pastor. I was dunked in the baptismal at 12 yrs old. Years later I decided I needed to be Baptised again since I understood the Christian life better than a child so I was dunked in a lake 3 times “In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit”.
Cora
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Dancelittleewok
Guest
That’s probably why you didn’t need another because the CC accepts “In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” as the only valid formula with use of water.
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coracobb
Guest
So does the Protestant faith, at least the churches I attended. The difference is that they don’t believe Baptism has anything to do with Salvation. I always felt as thoughit did in my heart and was quite pleased to hear that the Catholic Church say it does. The bible clearly says so if you believe communion is something more than a symbolic act. I know that all Protestants don’t believe that way but Baptists do.
God Bless
Cora
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elvisman
Guest
You DO know that your 2nd baptism was totally unnecessary - right?
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Cr8ton
Guest
just as a testimony, although I’m not proud of not getting baptized in water yet. I am a believer with full assurance of my salvation, a child of God by the grace of God through Jesus Christ… and have not been baptized in water yet. I do plan to soon, but the Spirit of God bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God whereby I cry Abba Father.
So if the CC is inerrant on the belief that baptism by water is necessary for salvation, I’d have to COMPLETELY DISAGREE. God bless
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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Philthy
Guest
No one here judges your soul - that is primarily the turf of non-Catholics.
Your message on water Baptism is confusing, while your actions are clear. You think it is basically useless, otherwise you have been baptized by now. Baptism is not a work - certainly no more a work than “confessing with your mouth” is.
You have to admit that a lot of attention in the NT is on water baptism.Why do you suppose Paul got baptized? Why do you suppose that Peter answered the Jews question with “Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins”; Why do you suppose all the ECFs attest to water baptism?
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
How can one be ashamed of that which one does not know nor understand?
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Because they walked by FAITH and not by LAW; just is with all of God’s redeemed.You seem to be invested in changing the subject, 2nd. Mary rejoiced because she was saved. Let’s not add to scripture, shall we?
How do you account for the parents of John the Baptist?
Luk 1:5 In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth.
Luk 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all commandments of the Lord
How can this statement be true, and also your statement that it is impossible to keep the Law?
How is the Image of fallen Adam different from the Image of God?
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ryanoneil
Guest
It would be better to say we have full hope. We should all be cautious of say we have full assurance of our salvation.
So if the CC is inerrant on the belief that baptism by water is necessary for salvation, I’d have to COMPLETELY DISAGREE. God bless
Paul is calling to mind how Israel was led out of the bondage of Egypt by the pillar of fire which is an image of the Spirit. For Christians, the Exodus has begun but is still in progress, for he is delivered from slavery to sin (Rom 6:6-7, 17) but not yet from the slavery of corruption.
For creation awaits with eager expectation the revelation of the children of God; for creation was made subject to futility, not of its own accord but because of the one who subjected it, in hope that creation itself would be set free from slavery to corruption and share in the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that all creation is groaning in labor pains even until now; and not only that, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, we also groan within ourselves as we wait for adoption, the redemption of our bodies. (Rom 8:19-23)
Paul taught that we are reliving the Exodus experience of Israel.
I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ. Yet God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the desert. These things happened as examples for us, so that we might not desire evil things, as they did. And do not become idolaters, as some of them did, as it is written, “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to revel.” Let us not indulge in immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell within a single day. Let us not test Christ as some of them did, and suffered death by serpents. Do not grumble as some of them did, and suffered death by the destroyer. These things happened to them as an example, and they have been written down as a warning to us, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall. (1 Cor 10:1-12)
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Cr8ton
Guest
I believe He who started a good work in me will complete it.
Romans 8:28-30, “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” What is evident from this passage is that those who are effectually called into the hope of salvation will indeed persevere to the end and be glorified.John 10:26-30, “You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” (See also Ephesians 1:4-5.)
There is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows that their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.
l John 2:l9, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be made plain that they all are not of us.” Similarly, the parable of the four soils as interpreted in Luke 8:9-l4 pictures people who “hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in a time of temptation fall away.”
-from John Piper
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, we are in agreement on this point. Can you tell me how being made in the “fallen” image of Adam is different than being made in the image and likeness of God?
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guanophore
Guest
From your mouth, to God’s ear!
If they are believers, and they “believe for a while” then fall, how does that make them “not born of God”? Can you show a scripture that says this? Jesus is clear that the seeds that sprout respond to the Word in faith.
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guanophore
Guest
Oh,you would be surprised. In fact, I would say that the majority of shame comes from a lack of understanding.
Did I say something previously that hurt your feelings? This invalidating remark seemed to come out of the blue right now, so I am thinking there must have been a previous post that left you insulted, and you are seeing to it that I reap what I sowed.
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guanophore
Guest
I understand where you are coming from, so of course, but I think it is a misleading way to try to express the principle of grace. Since the phrase is so misused and misunderstood, it seems like it would be more effective to express it differently.
Do you think Cornelius was trying to “work” his way to heaven with his prayers and alms?
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coracobb
Guest
Yes elvis I do know but at the time I didn’t. My sponsor and others at my Church explained it all to me, so now I know. I also know that when I needed my Baptismal records from my childhood church the secreatry told me she couldn’t find any record and said “it’s not like it means anything to your salvation.” At that moment I knew how very important Baptismal was. I told her in a very shaky voice that it meant something to me.
For some reason she got busy and in a few hours called me saying she found the records and made arrangements to mail them to me. I can tell you that peace of paper was precious to me. Technicaly I was still Protestant but spiritually I wasn’t.
See Ya,
Cora
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Cr8ton
Guest
I could show scriptural report, but I’d rather let John Piper… lol
There is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows that their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.
l John 2:l9, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be made plain that they all are not of us.” Similarly, the parable of the four soils as interpreted in Luke 8:9-l4 pictures people who “hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in a time of temptation fall away.”
The fact that such a thing is possible is precisely why the ministry of the Word in every local church must contain many admonitions to the church members to persevere in faith and not be entangled in those things which could possibly strangle them and result in their condemnation.
God justifies us on the first genuine act of saving faith, but in doing so he has a view to all subsequent acts of faith contained, as it were, like a seed in that first act.
What we are trying to do here is own up to the teaching of Romans 5:l, for example, that teaches that we are already justified before God. God does not wait to the end of our lives in order to declare us righteous. In fact, we would not be able to have the assurance and freedom in order to live out the radical demands of Christ unless we could be confident that because of our faith we already stand righteous before him.
Nevertheless, we must also own up to the fact that our final salvation is made contingent upon the subsequent obedience which comes from faith. The way these two truths fit together is that we are justified through our first act of faith because God sees in it (like he can see the tree in an acorn) the embryo of a life of faith. This is why those who do not lead a life of faith with its inevitable fruit of obedience simply bear witness to the fact that their first act of faith was not genuine.
The textual support for this is that Romans 4:3 cites Genesis 15:6 as the point where Abraham was justified by God. This is a reference to an act of faith early in Abraham’s career. Romans 4:l9-22, however, refers to an experience of Abraham many years later (when he was 100 years old, see Genesis 21:5, l2) and says that because of the faith of this experience Abraham was reckoned righteous. In other words, it seems that the faith which justified Abraham is not merely his first act of faith but the faith which gave rise to acts of obedience later in his life. (The same thing could be shown from James 2:21-24 in its reference to a still later act in Abraham’s life, namely, the offering of his son, Isaac, in Genesis 22.) The way we put together these crucial threads of biblical truth is by saying that we are indeed justified through our first act of faith but not without reference to all the subsequent acts of faith which give rise to the obedience that God demands. Faith alone is the instrument (not ground or basis) of our justification because God makes it his sole means of uniting us to Christ in whom we “become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
-John Piper
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tweetymom
Guest
Wrong I do not take anything personl from you. I thank you everytime you say my name in vain.
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Timothy_Piper
Guest
Sorry, but I am not following you here. “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness”
“God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.”
If there is a difference; it would be one word “sin”. Again; i don’t understand what you are trying to point out here.
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