"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[Timothy_Piper]

We are in agreement about the “no root” part. However, Jesus says that they received the Word with joy. Since the seed sprouted, something happned! The seed of faith cannot sprout in the human heart without supernatural grace. These people got born again, but did not grow in faith. They did not put down a root.

Receiving and believing are not the same. Your interpretation would mean the tare are really wheat which seemed to persevere since the angels have to come in at harvest in order to separate that which man is unable to tell apart because of what? The “HEART” of the man, which brings us back to the soils parable. It is the heart that need that special preparation to be set apart for the use of the Lord, which is the only heart that produces fruit, the 4th soil. Simon Mangas is another example, seeing all the power of the disciples, was even baptized, but was His heart prepared by God? No, he was a phony, which means his professed faith was just that professed, just like soils 2 & 3.

Furthermore, if you look at Peters sermons you will see they were hearing (AKA receiving) and believed (the right heart) and then received the HS, the permanent seal. It is interesting what Paul said to Simon Magnus; he put a temporary curse of blindness, but if you look at what Paul said, it was obvious that he would still be up to his satanic tricks, which guess where he went and stayed for nearly 25 years and received much honor and in fact a religious seat in Rome.

All the seeds are the same, would we agree? In three of the four cases, the seed germinates. Now, once a seen falls into the ground and dies, it can never return to being a seed. It has forever changed. I don’t see that scripture makes any such distinction as a “true believer”. Is this in contrast to an equally unscriptural term of “false believer”?

If you don’t see, then perhaps you do not believe? or maybe you need to look more carefully at the parable and what distinguished the 4th from the rest, then think about what Jesus said, “you will know them by their fruits”; know who? Which soil one produced fruit? Put the to together.

I agree, but it is the responsibility of the one who receives the Word to respond. It is up to us to cooperate with God’s grace in putting down a root. We are to apply ourselves to the teaching, to prayer, to study and show ourselves approved. Otherwise, the cares of this world will sweep us away, or we will fall in persecution.

The Bible says that our Faith, the ability to believe is a gift of God; not of human effort, that human effort stuff is called legalism and is what condemned the Jews in Jesus day.
Don’t confuse the result of that faith in not producing works, because God said that we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works that we will walk in them. (paraphrased)

On a side note, I went back to that 2ndAdam conversation about ashamed and i now understand why you felt insulted, I misread the conversation because I did not take the time to look carefully at it; so i do apologize because that would be not only insulting, but something I cannot determine since I don’t know you; it is God’s job. We are to make judgments but not on those things we have no knowledge and we are never to condemn because we do not know if the tare will become wheat, perhaps on a death bed. So again, I do apologize and will look more carefully, but at least you are humble enough not to just jump down my throat like some others may.

 

[izoid]

So you believe its possible for someone to resist Actual grace?

If you do, I would challenge you to look at your own life and see how compelled you are to not resist it but in fact pursue the things of God all the more.

This is what I believe to be a work of God that man would never ever WANT to resist even though his free will would technically allow it, it would never ever happen because no one would ever WANT to. (This is assuming the individual is one of the elect and has been drawn to saving faith in Christ by the irresistible grace of God.)

this doesn’t mean we are kept perfect and sinless, but that we endure until the end unto salvation through His enabling Grace.

We can only base our answer to this question on today. There is no guarantee that we would have the same answer tomorrow. That is why we must be very careful in evaluationg our justification based on how we currently feel.

As I think more and more about this, and I think Guan has elluded to it, do you think that Adam and Eve were part of the elect?

 

[Cr8ton]

Yes, man desires good is an effect of the actual grace. Man, with his free will, may choose lusting after his co worker is better–it feels to “good” to have sexual arousal. Mankind, with the free will, can decide if he wants God or lust. He is capable of both with free will. No one would ever want to choose evil in itself but rather do it the apparent gain he sees in it.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Do you think someone who continually chose lusting after women over God would really have a heart for God and His purposes? I believe if someone falls into sin and has a true heart for God. In Godly repentance, it would drive the man so hard to his knees in sorrow he would gain wisdom in how to deal with temptations in the future as opposed to letting himself become ensnared over and over again.

We know no one is perfect and we make mistakes, but if we allow this to become an excuse for our sin it would be questioned if we truly loved God or just wanted to reap the benefits of eternal life while indulging in the evil pleasures of the world.

Also keep in mind there are consequences for sin.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Do you think someone who continually chose lusting after women over God would really have a heart for God and His purposes? I believe if someone falls into sin and has a true heart for God. In Godly repentance, it would drive the man so hard to his knees in sorrow he would gain wisdom in how to deal with temptations in the future as opposed to letting himself become ensnared over and over again.

We know no one is perfect and we make mistakes, but if we allow this to become an excuse for our sin it would be questioned if we truly loved God or just wanted to reap the benefits of eternal life while indulging in the evil pleasures of the world.

Also keep in mind there are consequences for sin.

Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Is Hell a consequence for the elect? Are mistakes sin?

I didn’t deny there are sin consequences to Hell–there are both temporal and eternal for it. My argument has been that mankind (elect or no) has the ability to choose God or sin. Do you deny this? I think this is the crux of our discussion.

 

[Cr8ton]

We can only base our answer to this question on today. There is no guarantee that we would have the same answer tomorrow. That is why we must be very careful in evaluationg our justification based on how we currently feel.

As I think more and more about this, and I think Guan has elluded to it, do you think that Adam and Eve were part of the elect?

Is Hell a consequence for the elect? Are mistakes sin?

I didn’t deny there are sin consequences to Hell–there are both temporal and eternal for it. My argument has been that mankind (elect or no) has the ability to choose God or sin. Do you deny this? I think this is the crux of our discussion.

Yes I believe the elect has the ability to choose God or sin.

However; God’s elect will ultimately choose God over sin, be saved and brought to salvation.

every last one

The unconditionality of God’s electing grace is stressed in Romans 9:15-16, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So it depends not upon man’s will or exertion, but upon God’s mercy.”

We really do not understand mercy if we think that we can initiate it by our own will or effort. We are hopelessly bound in the darkness of sin. If we are going to be saved, God will have to unconditionally take the initiative in our heart and irresistibly make us willing to submit to him. (See Romans 11:7.)

Consider Romans 8:28-30
We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose, For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him? Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.​

It seems a lot of you seem to be doubting you are one of the ones who are called according to His purpose. I hope and pray you find rest in the fact that if you believe, trust and have a relationship with Jesus Christ you can be assured you are one of His.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

however we should still make our calling and election sure!
Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

---

As for Adam and Eve honestly I’ve never looked into it much but here is an interesting site on it so I’d recommend you look at the scriptures they suggest here for backing their beliefs. (note: Its the last paragraph on link below)

prca.org/current/Doctrine/Volume%208/news-18.htm

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’m surprised 2ndAdam hasn’t commented on his own thread for awhile. Anyone know where he is?

 

[izoid]

As for Adam and Eve honestly I’ve never looked into it much but here is an interesting site on it so I’d recommend you look at the scriptures they suggest here for backing their beliefs. (note: Its the last paragraph on link below)

prca.org/current/Doctrine/Volume%208/news-18.htm

Thanks for the link. I think it is an interesting article that brings up many more questions than it answers. According to the article, both Adam and Eve were saved (by reference to Gen. 3:21).

1. Adam and Eve were created without original sin.
2. Adam and Eve fell by their own free will.
3. Adam and Eve chose to follow God but not of their own free will as they did not have free will.

This evaluation is troubling to me. I can see nothing from the text that would indicate that Adam and Eve lost their free will when they sinned. In order to come to that conclusion, one would need to have a predetrmined position that rejects free will.

I am also confused, in light of the Reformed OSAS position, that Adam and Eve were “saved”, they fell, lost their salvation and then they were “saved” again. Does this not refute the Reformed position?

 

[guanophore]

Guan, if I may ask some questions to help us make a major distinction between Catholicism and Calvinism.

Would you consider yourself devoted to God and willing to do all He has commanded of you?

Yes, but I am not sure that state of mind and heart is related to the differences between these doctrines.

Do you ever see a possibility of your turning completely against God and committing mortal sin?

I look forward with hopeful expectation that He will preserve me in His grace until the end. However, I know my own propensity for evil, and the evil that dwells still within the human heart under the veil of flesh in which we dwell. I believe it is possible for all of us to commit apostasy.

 

[ryanoneil]

I believe He who started a good work in me will complete it.​

(See also Ephesians 1:4-5.)

In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian (which we could lose).

Romans 8:28-30, “We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his propose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.” What is evident from this passage is that those who are effectually called into the hope of salvation will indeed persevere to the end and be glorified.

These are people predestined to glory. Which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will (which they can not lose).

There is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows that their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.

They most certainly had a genuine faith at one point and they were born of God. But they end up rejecting it. They are the ones who are predestined to grace but not predestined to glory. They are the ones who are currently, but not ultimately justified.

Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory. This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. (2 Tim 2:10-12)

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. (Rev 22:19)

There are many many examples like this in the bible. People predestined to grace and not predestined to glory. They never recieve the gift of final perseverence. There is a great example that show the two side by side.

Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. " '"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:3-5)

Everyone in verse three is predestined to grace. They have heard and accepted and all have white garments. Some will soil their garments and not repent and their names will be erased from the book of life because they are not predestined to glory (they never recieve the grace of final perseverence). Those in verse four are predestined to grace and glory. They will not soil their garments and their names will not be erased from the book of life (they will recieve the grace of final perseverence).

This is one of our differences concerning the elect. We say they had it and lost it. You say they never had it in the first place.

 

[ryanoneil]

The textual support for this is that Romans 4:3 cites Genesis 15:6 as the point where Abraham was justified by God. This is a reference to an act of faith early in Abraham’s career. Romans 4:l9-22, however, refers to an experience of Abraham many years later (when he was 100 years old, see Genesis 21:5, l2) and says that because of the faith of this experience Abraham was reckoned righteous. In other words, it seems that the faith which justified Abraham is not merely his first act of faith but the faith which gave rise to acts of obedience later in his life. (The same thing could be shown from James 2:21-24 in its reference to a still later act in Abraham’s life, namely, the offering of his son, Isaac, in Genesis 22.) The way we put together these crucial threads of biblical truth is by saying that we are indeed justified through our first act of faith but not without reference to all the subsequent acts of faith which give rise to the obedience that God demands. Faith alone is the instrument (not ground or basis) of our justification because God makes it his sole means of uniting us to Christ in whom we “become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

-John Piper

The early act of faith is in Gen 12:1-4. Abram is justified by his faith in God here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance; he went out, not knowing where he was to go. By faith he sojourned in the promised land as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs of the same promise; (Heb 11:8-10)

 

[Cr8ton]

In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian (which we could lose).

These are people predestined to glory. Which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will (which they can not lose).

They most certainly had a genuine faith at one point and they were born of God. But they end up rejecting it. They are the ones who are predestined to grace but not predestined to glory. They are the ones who are currently, but not ultimately justified.

Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory. This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. (2 Tim 2:10-12)

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. (Rev 22:19)

There are many many examples like this in the bible. People predestined to grace and not predestined to glory. They never recieve the gift of final perseverence. There is a great example that show the two side by side.

Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. " '"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:3-5)

Everyone in verse three is predestined to grace. They have heard and accepted and all have white garments. Some will soil their garments and not repent and their names will be erased from the book of life because they are not predestined to glory (they never recieve the grace of final perseverence). Those in verse four are predestined to grace and glory. They will not soil their garments and their names will not be erased from the book of life (they will recieve the grace of final perseverence).

This is one of our differences concerning the elect. We say they had it and lost it. You say they never had it in the first place.

interesting, so would you say that it is impossible for us to know as Christians whether or not we are predestined unto glory? Therefore making all of God’s promises to us regarding eternal life and salvation always unsure and shaky ground?

 

[2nd_Adam]

I’m surprised 2ndAdam hasn’t commented on his own thread for awhile. Anyone know where he is?

Does that mean that you miss me?

Guanophore sent me a PM to come to the rescue of Tweetymom on a thread he created on birth control. Therefore, I have been busy over there in the request of Guanophore.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=402011

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Does that mean that you miss me?

Guanophore sent me a PM to come to the rescue of Tweetymom on a thread he created on birth control. Therefore, I have been busy over there in the request of Guanophore.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=402011

Do you mind answering Guan’s questions about Cornelius now?

Here is my first question:

Act 10:1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort,
Act 10:2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

According to the doctrine of total depravity, the unregenerated cannot please God. Since Cornelius had not yet heard the Gospel, how is it that he feared God, and, gave alms, and prayed?

Would you say that these were “works of the flesh” and not able to please God, because He was not yet in right relationship with God?

 

[2nd_Adam]

Do you mind answering Guan’s questions about Cornelius now?

I’m not sure we left off. I will take time for me to catch up on this thread. All I know is that Cornelius was part of the remnant chosen by grace before the foundation of the world.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

I’m not sure we left off. I will take time for me to catch up on this thread. All I know is that Cornelius was part of the remnant chosen by grace before the foundation of the world.

I edited and posted his questions in my previous post. I believe you left off around page 65.

 

[guanophore]

This is what I believe to be a work of God that man would never ever WANT to resist even though his free will would technically allow it, it would never ever happen because no one would ever WANT to. (This is assuming the individual is one of the elect and has been drawn to saving faith in Christ by the irresistible grace of God.)

This is what Catholics say about Mary, and people are telling us all the time it was “impossible”.

 

[Cr8ton]

This is what Catholics say about Mary, and people are telling us all the time it was “impossible”.

I don’t see the relation… please help me understand what you are implying by this?

Catholics say they are irresistibly drawn to Mary?

 

[guanophore]

Receiving and believing are not the same.

Yes, I will stipulate this. Just yesterday a sister told me that she believed that it was possible to speak in tongues, but that she had not received the ability to do so (and is disappointed about that).

Your interpretation would mean the tare are really  wheat which seemed to persevere since the angels have to come in at harvest in order to separate that which man is unable to tell apart because of what?

no, the two have nothing to do with one another. In the parable of the soils, the seed is the word of God. When it is received, it sprouts, and grows. This cannot happen unless faith mixes with grace.

The "HEART" of the man, which brings us back to the soils parable.  It is the heart that need that special preparation to be set apart for the use of the Lord, which is the only heart that produces fruit, the 4th soil.

I agree. However, I was not referring to the fruitful believer, but the two other believers that fell away, one that got choked with the cares of this world, and the other that caved during persecution.

Simon Mangas is another example, seeing all the power of the disciples, was even baptized, but was His heart prepared by God?

About Simon it says “he believed”. Just like the other two seeds that sprouted, he received the Word with joy,. Therefore, I would say that his heart was prepared to some extent, otherwise, he could not have believed and been baptized. The fact that he was still arrogant and misunderstood the nature of the Apostolic ministry does not mean that he fell away from the faith. For all we know, Peter did pray for him according to his plea, and he was spared, and went on to be a saint.

No, he was a phony, which means his professed faith was just that professed, just like soils 2 & 3.

There is nothing in the text that indicates he was “phony”. He was worldly, just as most baby Christians are. Peter told him the truth: “you have no part in his ministry”, meaning, he was not spiritually mature enough to operate the kind of gifts given to the apostles.

Furthermore, if you look at Peters sermons you will see they were hearing (AKA receiving) and believed (the right heart) and then received the HS, the permanent seal.

This is Catholic. Not sure what point you are trying to make here?

It is interesting what Paul said to Simon Magnus; he put a temporary curse of blindness, but if you look at what Paul said, it was obvious that he would still be up to his satanic tricks, which guess where he went and stayed for nearly 25 years and received much honor and in fact a religious seat in Rome.

I am sorry, it appeared that we were talking about the same passage, but now I think not. What curse of blindness? What religions seat in Rome?

 If you don't see, then perhaps you do not believe? or maybe you need to look more carefully at the parable and what distinguished the 4th from the rest, then think about what Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruits"; know who? Which soil one produced fruit?  Put the to together.

I just “see” it differently. I read scripture in the light of Apostolic Teaching. The apostles taught that it is possible to fall from grace. I am not talking about the fourth seed that produced the fruit, but the other two sprouted seeds that did not persevere.

The Bible says that our Faith, the ability to believe is a gift of God; not of human effort, that human effort stuff is called legalism and is what condemned the Jews in Jesus day.

Well, yes and no. Faith is a quality of being human,a nd the exercise of it is under our control. I can put my faith in money, power, prestige, you name it. This is why Jesus was constantly askign them “where is your faith”? And often He would say “your faith has saved you”. Humans are not able to place faith in God without His grace calling and enabling us to do so. By default, our faith reflects our fallen nature, and is self centered.

Human effort does not equate to “legalism”. Human effort is required and expected in the christian life. Jesus condemned the Jews for their lack of faith, not their effort.

Don’t confuse the result of that faith in not producing works, because God said that we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works that we will walk in them. (paraphrased)

Which works do, indeed, require human effort.

So again, I do apologize and will look more carefully, but at least you are humble enough not to just jump down my throat like some others may.

I appreciate it. I know that I become quite offensive on here at times (at least, so I am told) and when people snap at me, it is usually because I said something offensive to them first. I appreciate your conciliatory attitude.

 

[The_Ambassador]

. . . . continued . . . . continued . . . . continued . . . .

Ok - slow down there buddy. Let’s take this thing slowly. One passage at a time.

You are trying to prove that the Protestant doctrine of Unconditional Election is false.

So ok, give me your first passage. And do not just quote it, but properly interpret it for me.

Then we can have a reasonable dialogue.

In my article, I surrounded my Scripture quotations with heavy commentary. To simply copy-paste a bunch of Bible text accomplishes absolutely nothing, because as you know, we each see the meaning of those Scriptures in a different way.

The real progress will be made only by conversing about why we understand each passage the way we do. This is called dialogue. It works a lot better than parroting Bible verses at eachother.

 

[Cr8ton]

In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian (which we could lose).These are people predestined to glory. Which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will (which they can not lose).

They most certainly had a genuine faith at one point and they were born of God. But they end up rejecting it. They are the ones who are predestined to grace but not predestined to glory. They are the ones who are currently, but not ultimately justified.

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. (Rev 22:19)

There are many many examples like this in the bible. People predestined to grace and not predestined to glory. They never recieve the gift of final perseverence. There is a great example that show the two side by side.

Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. " '"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:3-5)

Everyone in verse three is predestined to grace. They have heard and accepted and all have white garments. Some will soil their garments and not repent and their names will be erased from the book of life because they are not predestined to glory (they never recieve the grace of final perseverence). Those in verse four are predestined to grace and glory. They will not soil their garments and their names will not be erased from the book of life (they will recieve the grace of final perseverence).

This is one of our differences concerning the elect. We say they had it and lost it. You say they never had it in the first place.

In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian (which we could lose).

These are people predestined to glory. Which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will (which they can not lose).

They most certainly had a genuine faith at one point and they were born of God. But they end up rejecting it. They are the ones who are predestined to grace but not predestined to glory. They are the ones who are currently, but not ultimately justified.

Therefore, I bear with everything for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, together with eternal glory. This saying is trustworthy: If we have died with him we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him. But if we deny him he will deny us. (2 Tim 2:10-12)

Yet I hold this against you: you have lost the love you had at first. Realize how far you have fallen. Repent, and do the works you did at first. Otherwise, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. (Rev 2:4-5)

and if anyone takes away from the words in this prophetic book, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city described in this book. (Rev 22:19)

There are many many examples like this in the bible. People predestined to grace and not predestined to glory. They never recieve the gift of final perseverence. There is a great example that show the two side by side.

Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy. " '"The victor will thus be dressed in white, and I will never erase his name from the book of life but will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and of his angels. (Rev 3:3-5)

Everyone in verse three is predestined to grace. They have heard and accepted and all have white garments. Some will soil their garments and not repent and their names will be erased from the book of life because they are not predestined to glory (they never recieve the grace of final perseverence). Those in verse four are predestined to grace and glory. They will not soil their garments and their names will not be erased from the book of life (they will recieve the grace of final perseverence).

This is one of our differences concerning the elect. We say they had it and lost it. You say they never had it in the first place.

You say the elect had salvation and lost it, we say the one who lost it was never truly an elect, but that doesn’t mean its impossible for one to be predestined to grace as opposed to predestined to glory…( although I’m not convinced this means he was born of God) but in the end turns out to be an apostate.

you quoted above saying these verses I posted below in Romans are for believers who are predestined to glory.