"The sufficiency of Grace" a continuation of "The sufficiency of Christ" family debate.

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Chesteronrules pulled 10 or something verses out of scripture and slapped them on the page and said, “See! See! Hear you go.” Each one of these have to be put back into context of the author’s intent. This take a considerable amount of time and after doing so, usually the challenger doesn’t even take the time to read your work, but is already arming themselves to throw the next spear.

I am a married man, with six children, and own my own small business. I will get to these or maybe someone else, but it willl take time. But I still feel that after all the effort, it will be a waste of time.

Start with one passage, then.

I’m willing to dialogue on a point by point basis.

 

[tweetymom]

Chesteronrules pulled 10 or something verses out of scripture and slapped them on the page and said, “See! See! Hear you go.” Each one of these have to be put back into context of the author’s intent. This take a considerable amount of time and after doing so, usually the challenger doesn’t even take the time to read your work, but is already arming themselves to throw the next spear.

I am a married man, with six children, and own my own small business. I will get to these or maybe someone else, but it willl take time. But I still feel that after all the effort, it will be a waste of time.

Congratulations Rocket on owning your own business and having 6 kids.

And you are right there are a lot of spears thrown, I had my share, but armed with the word of God and your faith in our Savior they can not do anything but let you know that you are on the right track with Jesus. God Bless you today. God takes all the spears meant for you.

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by guanophore
If you have answered this, please pardon me as I missed it. What brings you here to CAF?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket_Man
Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket_Man
I’m am here to tell others my story and learn how this story is applicable in the CC.

It seems that your mission here is primarily evangelistic, Rocket.

Rocket I would not go to a Protestant forum to evangelize, because I believe they are there to share their faith with others who do not believe as they do, just as we Catholic are here not to have Protestants come and evangelize us but to share and understand what we believe to be the whole Truth which Jesus commissioned his Apostles to hand on down. Carlan

 

[Carlan]

Congratulations Rocket on owning your own business and having 6 kids.

And you are right there are a lot of spears thrown, I had my share, but armed with the word of God and your faith in our Savior they can not do anything but let you know that you are on the right track with Jesus. God Bless you today. God takes all the spears meant for you.

Tweety, stop doing this. As confirmed Catholics we are here to defend and share the faith.

Not to confirm visitors in their error of what they think we believe.

And please do not tell me Il am judging you for calling you out on it, you would serve Christ and his Church better by not being here if you are not willing to defend the faith.Carlan

 

[tweetymom]

Tweety, stop doing this. As confirmed Catholics we are here to defend and share the faith.

Not to confirm visitors in their error of what they think we believe.

And please do not tell me Il am judging you for calling you out on it, you would serve Christ and his Church better by not being here if you are not willing to defend the faith.Carlan

Carlan stop doing this, I was not talking to you I was talking to Rocket who is my dear friend. If you do not like to read what I have to say put me on ignore.

 

[Carlan]

Carlan stop doing this, I was not talking to you I was talking to Rocket who is my dear friend. If you do not like to read what I have to say put me on ignore.

There are PMs to be sent when we wish to congratulate,
You only cause scandal when you confirm someone in error In a public forum,.Carlan

 

[tweetymom]

There are PMs to be sent when we wish to congratulate,
You only cause scandal when you confirm someone in error In a public forum,.Carlan

Thank you

 

[ryanoneil]

Let’s try this again. If you know what these scriptures mean, then please explain them to me.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

** Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified**

What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Paul is talking about those saints who have persevered to the end and have gone to heaven. These verses to don’t say that once a person is justified they will experience every step after that. Read the rest of chapter 8 and you will see that salvation cannot be threatened by any cosmic force outside of us. But Paul says in plenty of other places that our will is free to reject God’s love and we can forfeit eternal life through sin.

That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. (Rom 11:20-23)

Do you see that the Romans stand fast through faith in verse 21? This means that the Romans are justified. But, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness in verses 22-23. The fact is, those justified before God can fall away from faith and lose there salvation. And those who are cut off can be grafted back in by God if they do not persist in thier unbelief.

 

[fhansen]

What did God foreknow about those whom he did foreknow?

Our faith? Our works? Our love for him? Our prayer’s requesting divine assistance? Our obedience? ALL OF THE ABOVE? "

But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

**The “problem” is that only God can know with absolute certainty who the good soil is, IOW who will persevere until the end and be saved.

It cannot be denied that Scripture does two things: It encourages believers to be confident in their salvation while also admonishing them to be concerned/vigilant about their salvation.
**

 

[izoid]

The “problem” is that only God can know with absolute certainty who the good soil is, IOW who will persevere until the end and be saved.

It cannot be denied that Scripture does two things: It encourages believers to be confident in their salvation while also admonishing them to be concerned/vigilant about their salvation.

I am so glad that you point this out. When I was a protestant I was faced with the cahllenge of which of these 2 concepts to trust in. There was not a complete theology, it is more one or the other.

I so appreciate the fact that the Catholic Church has a full understanding is able to logically combine both ideas.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

The “problem” is that only God can know with absolute certainty who the good soil is, IOW who will persevere until the end and be saved.

It cannot be denied that Scripture does two things: It encourages believers to be confident in their salvation while also admonishing them to be concerned/vigilant about their salvation.

Both are important. Good points.

We must continue to press on knowing that Jesus will not abandon us.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

There is nothing I want more that to hear of your love for Jesus. Because I know that all else flows from this love. Without it all of life is meaningless. Do you believe that you could ever walk away from this love that you have?

I don’t want to, but there are times when I do. We all do. :sad_yes:

 

[guanophore]

“Those who, like the Pelagians, seek the reason for predestination only in man’s naturally good works, evidently misjudge the nature of the Christian heaven which is an absolutely supernatural destiny. As Pelagianism puts the whole economy of salvation on a purely natural basis, so it regards predestination in particular not as a special grace, much less as the supreme grace, but only as a reward for natural merit.”

You are required to cite your sources here, Rocket.

The Catholic Church defeated the Pelagian heresy in the early centuries.

How come it is, if you do good works, you are doing them by grace, through faith, but when Catholics do them, they are 'natural" (of the flesh)?

 

[guanophore]

Maybe I don’t understand it, but just the fact there is a purgatory make’s it very suspicious.

How does purgatory make salvation by grace “suspicious”?

 

[guanophore]

"This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

Which one of these above retained the seed in their heart?

The issue is not about the one that persevered, but the ones that did not. Jesus is clear that they receive the Word with joy. They sprout, and grow. This is a way of saying that the Gospel of Truth is born in their hearts. One cannot “fall away” from something to which one has not fastened. Life cannot get choked out unless it first exists. Jesus is clearly teaching that not all those in whom the seed of the gospel sprouts persevere until the end.

 

[guanophore]

Chesteronrules pulled 10 or something verses out of scripture and slapped them on the page and said, “See! See! Hear you go.” Each one of these have to be put back into context of the author’s intent. This take a considerable amount of time and after doing so, usually the challenger doesn’t even take the time to read your work, but is already arming themselves to throw the next spear.

I am a married man, with six children, and own my own small business. I will get to these or maybe someone else, but it willl take time. But I still feel that after all the effort, it will be a waste of time.

To the extent that there is nothing you can say that will pursuade us to abandon the Apostolic Teachings entrusted to the Church, you are right.

 

[guanophore]

And you are right there are a lot of spears thrown, I had my share, but armed with the word of God and your faith in our Savior they can not do anything but let you know that you are on the right track with Jesus. God Bless you today. God takes all the spears meant for you.

On the contrary, Tweety, there are many members of CAF that have let you know that your embracing of doctrines that depart from the Teaching of the Apostles have separated you from communion with the Catholic Church.

You have also been repeatedly informed that your rejection of Catholic doctrine makes it inappropropriate for you to claim to be Catholic.

If you think misrepresenting yourself to others puts you on "the right track with Jesus’ you are mighty mistaken. Jesus said to let your yes be yes. Tweety’s “yes” is “yes, but”.

 

[guanophore]

Carlan stop doing this, I was not talking to you I was talking to Rocket who is my dear friend. If you do not like to read what I have to say put me on ignore.

Everyone here is free to post whatever they like, so long as it does not violate the forum rules.

It is really not the content of what you post that is troublesome, but the fact that you claim to be Catholic while posting it.

 

[PRmerger]

Rocket! Here’s the atheistic equivalent to you!

bridgeforsale:

Yes indeed, I was a Christian for years before arriving at my current position (my family background includes both Catholics & Protestants). I loved theology at one time (I read everything from Wesley and Jacob Arminius, to Calvin, Augustine, NT Wright, C.S Lewis, RC Sproul, Karl Barth, Spurgeon, Aquinas, Molina, and of course I’ve obviously read the bible numerous times).

Just like you claim to have been unmoved by any sacramental grace, this atheist also claims to have been unmoved by any theological arguments for God’s existence–including our very own Bible.

What would you say to this guy, Rocket, who has been immersed in theological discourse–indeed, steeped in the very Word of God–yet remains unmoved?

Do you think it is a testament to the lack of Truth in Scripture that he remains unmoved? Or, rather, is his lack of conversion in his own interior struggle and hardness of heart?

Of course, my opinion is the latter.

Same as what I think with you. Your lack of “spiritual regeneration” in the CC is not a testament to its falsehood, but, rather, speaks to your own interior struggle and hardness of heart.

[SIGN1]I see how stiff-necked this people is," continued the LORD to Moses. :sad_yes: [/SIGN1]

 

[Rocket_Man]

I don’t want to, but there are times when I do. We all do. :sad_yes:

Could you walk away from His love forever?