The supposed inferiority of the Latin Rite

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\i have seen only one really holy ordinary mass, on ewtn\

**Even the masses, which are celebrated in the Ordinary Form by Pope Benedict, you do not find holy?

How do you bear the burden of determining what’s holy and what isn’t, when it comes to the Eucharistic Sacrifice? It must really weigh you down.

BTW, neither the “red candle” nor rosaries are required by either form of the Roman rite.

In fact, the PREFERRED color, according to the rubrics of the EF is CLEAR or WHITE for the Sanctuary Lamp.

And what does your posting have to do with the writings of Rev. Fr. Robert Taft, SJ?**
 
My wife is a Byzantine. We go to Latin Rite, Novus Ordo masses where we live because there are no other options near us. It’s the same Jesus.
However…when we visit her family and go to the Byzantine Liturgy, I’m blown away by the chanting, incense, icons, and reverence-all of which are missing in the Novus Ordo. Not only that, but their culture extends beyond Sunday Liturgy.
You definitely can’t say that the Byzantine Liturgy is superior to the Tridentine high mass, but with the ordinary form of the mass, most traditions have been thrown out the window and reverence has gone with it.
 
I am a recent convert to the Catholic Faith, having been an active (and catholic hating) Protestant all my life. When I entered the Church on Holy Saturday of 2001, I entered the Byzantine Rite.

While I love the solemnity of the TLM and especially the beauty of the Gregorian Chant, I find it hard in many aspects. I don’t know Latin, the priest seems to think that wearing a mike would somehow corrupt the service, so I can’t hear him, and I find myself pretty much bored.

I find myself bored because the Liturgy in the TLM is pretty much all about the priest and very little about the people. Yet the word “liturgy” means “the work of the people.” And in the Byzantine Church … boy, do we work in our Liturgy. There are responses, prayers, antiphons, prokemenons, more responses, etc. It is a busy time for the laity when you are in a Byzantine Liturgy.

The one thing that very much makes me scratch my head in wonder regarding the TLM is why the Roman Rite decided at some point that the children and infants of the faithful are not to receive Jesus. I just don’t understand this at all. Seeing a baby receive a drop of the precious blood after being baptized into the Body of Christ is still a very exciting moment for me. Are your children somehow not worthy of that which our Lord in John 6 said confers eternal life to the partaker? I’m sorry if that sounds a bit snarky, but for the life of me, I just don’t “get it.”

I’ll certainly read the articles linked here. That’s just my .02 worth, which is about all it is worth!
 
IrishEddieOHara said:
I am a recent convert to the Catholic Faith, having been an active (and catholic hating) Protestant all my life. When I entered the Church on Holy Saturday of 2001, I entered the Byzantine Rite.

While I love the solemnity of the TLM and especially the beauty of the Gregorian Chant, I find it hard in many aspects. I don’t know Latin, the priest seems to think that wearing a mike would somehow corrupt the service, so I can’t hear him, and I find myself pretty much bored.

I find myself bored because the Liturgy in the TLM is pretty much all about the priest and very little about the people. Yet the word “liturgy” means “the work of the people.” And in the Byzantine Church … boy, do we work in our Liturgy. There are responses, prayers, antiphons, prokemenons, more responses, etc. It is a busy time for the laity when you are in a Byzantine Liturgy.

The one thing that very much makes me scratch my head in wonder regarding the TLM is why the Roman Rite decided at some point that the children and infants of the faithful are not to receive Jesus. I just don’t understand this at all. Seeing a baby receive a drop of the precious blood after being baptized into the Body of Christ is still a very exciting moment for me. Are your children somehow not worthy of that which our Lord in John 6 said confers eternal life to the partaker? I’m sorry if that sounds a bit snarky, but for the life of me, I just don’t “get it.”

I’ll certainly read the articles linked here. That’s just my .02 worth, which is about all it is worth!
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Did you ever try praying in the Traditional Rite? Just praying. Reading the Missal and praying. It actually works quite well, forces you to focus your thoughts to the task at hand and to be reverent.

Of course it is harder to do that than to continually be doing physical things, calling out responses and such, but praying the entire Mass does work quite well as far as participation goes.

At least it always has for me.
 
The Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in D.C. is having the Latin Mass for the first time in 45 years on April 24th at 1pm.
 
regina53 said:
i bet you will not find all that talking running up and down the aisle hand shaking back slapping texting phones ringing shorts miniskirts sweatpants altergirls women all over the alter handing out communion people dashing out b4 the priest leaves the tabernacle is gone or off to the side no red candle no genuflecting no rosaries no confessional ( i can keep going ). i don’t know anything about the Byzantine rite. may never get a chance to attend one.but the ordinary, is just that everyone has forgotten why they go to mass. they don,t see the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus anymore. it’s too easy. they don’t even go to confession. i am a sinner every few seconds i do or ( mostly ) say something stupid. its like watching pelosi and all the rest of the pro choicers go to communion. i have seen only one really holy ordinary mass, on ewtn SANCTUS SANCTUS SANCTUS
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I’m really sorry you’ve had such bad experiences. I’m canonically Latin Rite, but was raised in the Byzantine Rite and currently attend a Byzantine Rite church. I went to Mass for Ash Wednesday today, though. Although I have certainly experienced the things you talk about, I have also had quite the opposite experience. My husband is at Mass right now. In that parish, there is always a line 15-30 people deep for each of the priests hearing confessions for two hours each Saturday. The Masses are, for the most part, reverent and well celebrated. Masses in our Cathedral are always beautiful . I prefer the Divine Liturgy to the TLM and Novus Ordo, but I always know where I can find a beautiful, reverently celebrated Novus Ordo if I need to.
 
babochka said:
I prefer the Divine Liturgy to the TLM and Novus Ordo, but I always know where I can find a beautiful, reverently celebrated Novus Ordo if I need to.
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What I can’t understand is how those who prefer the Byzantine Rite who view Mass behind icons and walls can more easily adapt to the OF which has the priest facing the people in full view without all that certain mystery, if you will.
 
ProVobis said:
What I can’t understand is how those who prefer the Byzantine Rite who view Mass behind icons and walls can more easily adapt to the OF which has the priest facing the people in full view without all that certain mystery, if you will.
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**Maybe because most Eastern Christians (especially converts) have to be a bit more liturgically savvy just to be able to survive in a sea of Western Christianity (both Catholic and Protestant), so they tend to take a broader view instead of or insular (or seige) one seen in some so-called traditionalist circles.

Generally, even in Orthodox Churches, the Royal Doors before the Altar are opened for the Divine Liturgy. Daily Matins and Vespers, of couse, the Royal Doors are usually closed because the Altar is not used.

There was a comparable custom in the West with the Rood Screen.

**
 
ProVobis said:
What I can’t understand is how those who prefer the Byzantine Rite who view Mass behind icons and walls can more easily adapt to the OF which has the priest facing the people in full view without all that certain mystery, if you will.
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well, and I can only speak for myself here, but I find that whether the priest faces ad orientum or ad populum is a non issue. during DL and the OF I participate more than in the EF. so, yes I couldn’t see much of what the priest was doing during the DL but between all the responses and prayers and sign of the crosses and bowing, i didn’t much care that I couldn’t see what he was doing…I was rather busy myself 🙂
 
There are numerous rites in Catholicism. In Truth - all are Valid and Pleasing to Almighty GOD or they wouldnt be allowed. To say one is better than another is to presume the mind of GOD IMO

The Western Rites

Subdivisions By whom and where used Liturgical Languages

Ambrosian Northern Italy

Gallician France

Monastic The monastic orders of western Europe

Mosarabic Spain

Roman - Latin Central and W. Europe, N. and S. America, Asia,
Africa, Australia, Bohemia

The Eastern Rites

Subdivisions By whom and where used Liturgical
Languages

Alexandrine Copts (Egypt)

Ethiopians

Antiochion Malakarese (India)

Maronites (Near East)

Syrians (Mesopotamia, Syria, India, U.S.A.)

Arabic

Armenian Near East, U.S.A. Armenian

Greek or

Byzantine Bulgarians

Georgians (Russia)

Greece, Near East

Italo-Greeks (southern Italy, Sicily, U.S.A.)

Croatians

Melchites (Near East, U.S.A.)

Rumanians (Rumania, U.S.A.)

Russians (Poland, Russia,
America, Far East)

Ruthenians (Czechoslovakia, Rus-
sia, Hungary, Rumania, U.S.A.)

Hungary

Magyar

Chaldean Chaldean (Near East, U.S.A.)

Malaberese (India)
 
\There are numerous rites in Catholicism. In Truth - all are Valid and Pleasing to Almighty GOD or they wouldnt be allowed. To say one is better than another is to presume the mind of GOD IMO\

Exactly what I’ve been saying repeatedly, though some people have chosen to misinterpret my words or presumed to be able to read my thoughts.
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
I was reading an article by Fr. Taft, S.J., last night and in it are listed several, very important ways, that the Byzantine Rite is superior to it’s Latin counterpart. Among the deficiencies of the Traditional Latin Rite are, to name two, a “schizophrenic” Christology.
and a lack of Trinitarian emphasis. All the while he states that the East is not some Liturgical Paradise, and that the Latin tradition is just as valid and apostolic as anything in the East, but I can’t conclude anything from this essay other than that the TLM, as we know it, is simply inferior to the Byzantine Divine Liturgy. Read it and tell me what your impressions are.

archeparchy.ca/documents/Taft%20Eastern%20Presuppositions.pdf
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I highly disagree that Roman Catholicism is inferior to Eastern Catholicism, or that the Divine Liturgy is superior to the Mass, especially the TLM. I think they’re different but one is not superior or inferior to the other.

Another poster mentioned how the TLM is mostly all about the priest and the altar servers and the Byzantine liturgy involves the laity… but I think it depends on where you go. I sometimes visit the TLM, and even though the laity don’t* visibly *do much, we join our prayers to those of the priest… and there are translations available for the Latin. My family is Russian Orthodox and when I visit their parish, I enjoy the liturgy but only the choir does the responses, and most people just stand around and many even talk to their friends during the liturgy. Yes there are others who pray, and the church itself is decorated beautifully and the liturgy is done very well, but the laity are not much involved either. I think it’s really up to the person…
 
\My family is Russian Orthodox and when I visit their parish, I enjoy the liturgy but only the choir does the responses, and most people just stand around and many even talk to their friends during the liturgy.\

I’m a strong believer in congregational singing, but you need a choir or cantors to take the lead, to sing the propers, and especially the more complex services, such as Matins and the special offices of Holy Week.
 
bpbasilphx said:
\There are numerous rites in Catholicism. In Truth - all are Valid and Pleasing to Almighty GOD or they wouldnt be allowed. To say one is better than another is to presume the mind of GOD IMO\

Exactly what I’ve been saying repeatedly, though some people have chosen to misinterpret my words or presumed to be able to read my thoughts.
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We can only go by what you say, the tone of your arguments both past and present and your tagline which speaks volumes about you and your ideas about the Roman Church and particularly the Holy Father.
 
palmas85 said:
We can only go by what you say, the tone of your arguments both past and present and your tagline which speaks volumes about you and your ideas about the Roman Church and particularly the Holy Father.
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**Tell me what you think my ideas about the Pope are.

Be specific as you can, giving quotes from my own words, when possible.

Otherwise, you are merely slandering me.**
 
palmas85 said:
We can only go by what you say, the tone of your arguments both past and present and your tagline which speaks volumes about you and your ideas about the Roman Church and particularly the Holy Father.
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I’m not sure what you mean about poster bpbasilphx. He or she seems to be very respectful of the pope and the Roman Rite of the Church. He or she can be untactful at times, but not mean or disrespectful.
 
StillWondering said:
I’m not sure what you mean about poster bpbasilphx. He or she seems to be very respectful of the pope and the Roman Rite of the Church. He or she can be untactful at times, but not mean or disrespectful.
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Thank you, still wondering.

I’ve received private messages telling me to get on the back of the bus and go back to my Eastern ghetto.

So, who’s being untactful?
 
StillWondering said:
I’m not sure what you mean about poster bpbasilphx. He or she seems to be very respectful of the pope and the Roman Rite of the Church. He or she can be untactful at times, but not mean or disrespectful.
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If Basil truly believes his tagline" I support the Zoghby Initiative" then he does not believe that the Holy Father is what we as Catholics believe him to be. The Zoghby initiatives states

** I believe everything which Eastern Orthodoxy teaches.**

Amazing as it may be, Catholics do not believe everything that eastern Orthodoxy teaches:eek:

And the biggie

** I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as the first among the bishops, according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millennium, before the separation:bigyikes:
**

That statement in and of itself denies much of what Catholics believe concerning the Holy Father. We do not view the Holy Father as merely being the first among Bishops nor the limits recognized by the eastern fathers prior to the separation…

Basil also has some tense feelings towards how his Church or maybe some other Eastern Church, was treated by Roman Rite Bishops and Priests in the United States many years ago, which he has shared with us in the past.

As far as his statement about getting private messages telling him to get on the back of the bus and go back to his Eastern ghetto, someone may have said that to him. However, I did not, even though his carefully worded post made it appear that I did.

He is the one who chose to use as a tagline I support the Zoghby initiative

If he in fact does not support and believe in it, or does not know what it truly means he should not use it as a tagline as it can only cause confusion.
 
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