The Talmud and Jesus

[Valke2]

From 1578 to 1580, explicit references to Jesus were edited out of Talmuds, in order to avoid Christian persecution. In earlier manuscritps, there are clear references to “Yeshu ha’NOtrzi” (Jesus of Nazereth). This material has been put back into the Talmud, but many Jews don’t know this, as it appears only in some editions, and only in the back as a kind of endnote (and in small type).

The picture of Jesus described in the Talmud is very different (if it were similar, it wouldn’t have been removed out of fear of angering christians). The description is attributed to Rabbi Eliezer, who was taught by Yochanan ben Zakkai. Zakkai was very old when he died in 80 CE and could have encountered Jesus while he was alive.

ALthough some rabbis have argued that Jesus in the Talmud was a different person than the Jesus followed by Christians, Rambam agrees he’s the same person. I think the main reason some rabbis in omodern times have said otherwise was in an attempt to avoid anti-semitism. But if that was the attempt, it failed, as there are plenty of antisemitic websites that state the sources that acknowledge Jesus in the Talmud.

Anyway the Talmud reveals Jesus as a former student of Torah who went seroiusly off the rails and became a spiritual danger to the Jews.

I’ll post more later when I have time.

 

[Karin]

Anyway the Talmud reveals Jesus as a former student of Torah who went seroiusly off the rails and became a spiritual danger to the Jews.

I’ll post more later when I have time.

This promises to be a very interesting thread Valke2!

Of course Jesus “went off the rails” so to speak and was a threat to Jews (spiritual)…He taught the truth,a truth many of the time (and now) did not want to hear…he made people think outside of the box (so to speak) something that folks where rather uncomfortable with or perhaps scared to do.

 

[Valke2]

This promises to be a very interesting thread Valke2!

Of course Jesus “went off the rails” so to speak and was a threat to Jews (spiritual)…He taught the truth,a truth many of the time (and now) did not want to hear…he made people think outside of the box (so to speak) something that folks where rather uncomfortable with or perhaps scared to do.

Obviously, I don’t expect anyone to believe the historical accuracy of what was recorded in the Talmud. (Unless stillsmallvoice) is still lurking around here somewhere)

 

[Karin]

Obviously, I don’t expect anyone to believe the historical accuracy of what was recorded in the Talmud. (Unless stillsmallvoice) is still lurking around here somewhere)

well outside of him going off the rails and being a threat to jews what else can you provide to what these passages say about Jesus?

 

[Valke2]

Continued.,

The Talmud refers to Jesus’ mother as Miriam ("Mary), a woman’s hairdresser who was married but conceived Jesus by another man. Pandira. Jesus is sometimes referred to in the Talmud as “Ben Pandira”, Son of Pandira. (Shabbot 104b). Mary is beliebved to have been of a royal bloodline, but she ‘played the harlot with carpenters’ This suggests that it was Jesus’ biological father that was the carpenter. (B. Sanhedrin 106a)

Time for Court. More later.

 

[Saint_Michael]

I actually saw a convert story on T.V. about an orthodox Jew who converted by discovering the descriptions of Jesus in the Talmud. I believe that the Talmud refers to Jesus as a magician or sorcerer. Which gives credence to the account of acts and miracles attributed to Jesus within the New Testament. (this could easily be the REAL reason why Jews removed it from the Talmud, but of course it’s easier for Valke2 to blame it on anti-semitism) His reasoning was everyone always denied that Jesus was even worthy of talking about or did anything special, but then he discovers that Jews of the time refered to him as a sorcerer or magician, so he had to acknowledge that Jesus did in fact perform some miracles.

The part of calling Mary a whore hurts me so badly I can’t even acknowledge that was just posted here. I can’t understand why this is brought up here, aside from Valke2 wants to hurt us or incite us to anger. But of course if the virgin birth did happen what can those that despise her say other than she played the harlot? My blood simply boils at such a statement, it makes me very angry and upset to read such a thing on Catholic Answers.

 

[Valke2]

I actually saw a convert story on T.V. about an orthodox Jew who converted by discovering the descriptions of Jesus in the Talmud. I believe that the Talmud refers to Jesus as a magician or sorcerer. Which gives credence to the account of acts and miracles attributed to Jesus within the New Testament. (this could easily be the REAL reason why Jews removed it from the Talmud, but of course it’s easier for Valke2 to blame it on anti-semitism) His reasoning was everyone always denied that Jesus was even worthy of talking about or did anything special, but then he discovers that Jews of the time refered to him as a sorcerer or magician, so he had to acknowledge that Jesus did in fact perform some miracles.

The part of calling Mary a whore hurts me so badly I can’t even acknowledge that was just posted here. I can’t understand why this is brought up here, aside from Valke2 wants to hurt us or incite us to anger. But of course if the virgin birth did happen what can those that despise her say other than she played the harlot? My blood simply boils at such a statement, it makes me very angry and upset to read such a thing on Catholic Answers.

That sounds weird. THere’s nothing in the Talmud about jesus that would cause an orthodox to convert to christianity. Quite the contrary. But, ya never know. Sorry about the whore thing. But it only means she had a child out of wedlock. If that made you angry you may not want to read the rest of my posts. I understand your reaction and can only say that the connotation today is much worse than it was then, especially when applied to a person who many for 2,000 years or so consider the mother of God.

And stop making personal attacks on me, please.

 

[Valke2]

Cointinue. (Part III)

The Talmud discusses an incident between Jesus and his teacher, Rabbi Joshua ben Perachya. They were staying at an inn. The teacher made a comment about how beautiful the inn was. He referred to it as an “acsania” which can also mean a female innkeeper. Jesus thought his teacher was making a leering comment about the innkeeper, and he replied in kind: “But Rabbi, her eyes are so narrow!” (Sanhedrin 107b).

This comment caused his teacher to become angry, implying (so the rabbis say) that Jesus had a bad habit of making inappropriate remarks about women. The teacher threw Jesus out of his “school” and would no longer teach him.

Jesus repeatdly asked to be accepted back over time, but Joshuar refused. Finally, Joshua determined to take Jesus back as a student the next time he asked. But when Jesus came and asked again, Joshua was in the middle of prayers and couldn’t be disturbed. He made what he thought was a friendly gesutre, asking Jesus to wait. BUt Jesus thought he was being dismissed again.

After this Jesus began instructing others in his heretical ideas. His personal issues became political and theological. Rabbi Joshua eventually sought him out and begged jesus to return to the fold. But he refused, saying “I have learned this from you: everyone who sins and causes other people to sin will not receive the opportunity to repent.”

What is interesting (for me) is that the Talmud blames, at least partly, Rabbi Joshua. It concludes that one should “always let the left hand push away while the right hand invites.”

The talmud ends the narrative with “Yeshua ha’Notzri practiced magic and led astray and deceived Israel.”

The Talmud portrays Jesus as going astray because of a character flaw and it criticizes his teacher for this treatment of Jesus.

 

[Rocky]

Well, this commentary (dated early CE) added to the Talmud would seem to be what one would expect from someone Jewish who wanted to deny Jesus as a prophet sent from God. And the I could understand taking it out because of anti-semitism feelings, as what is said about Mary is very disgusting. But if a person wants to make Jesus out to be a charlatan and deceiver, it seems reasonable that one would begin with his mother.

My question, though, is why are you posting this Valke2? What do you hope for us Catholics to get out of this commentary, or discussion about this commentary? Or is this actually what you believe about Jesus and Mary?

 

[inJESUS]

Now really why get upset? what can a person expect from people who wanted Jesus dead? do you expect to find flattering writings?

Valke2, what else is written in Talmud? and do you consider these opinions or inspired scripture?

 

[Saint_Michael]

He’s an orthodox Jew, of course he accepts the Talmud. This topic is in bad taste, I really don’t understand what a topic like this is going to do. Calling Mary a whore, saying Jesus is boiling in pig semen, we’ve all heard this before, some things are better left not discussed.

I reported the topic for being disrespectful of our religion, but apparently the MOD’s will allow it.

I can’t participate in a Catholic forum that allows Mary and Jesus to be blasphemed so openly and directly under the guise of “discussion”.

I resign this account and I will not simply take a 20 day breather, I won’t be back and I will withdraw any support I offer to CAF via money or magazine subsrciptions in the future.

 

[sassygal1973]

Saint, I understand coming from that awful Jewish forum. I think this thread belongs on there. Valke, how can you even put this **** in people’s heads?? And why are you on a Catholic forum anyway?? Shouldn’t you be bashing us on your own forums?? Like the rest of them?

 

[Valke2]

Well, this commentary (dated early CE) added to the Talmud would seem to be what one would expect from someone Jewish who wanted to deny Jesus as a prophet sent from God. And the I could understand taking it out because of anti-semitism feelings, as what is said about Mary is very disgusting. But if a person wants to make Jesus out to be a charlatan and deceiver, it seems reasonable that one would begin with his mother.

My question, though, is why are you posting this Valke2? What do you hope for us Catholics to get out of this commentary, or discussion about this commentary? Or is this actually what you believe about Jesus and Mary?

I had alluded to this in another thread and recently ran across the supporting citations for it, so I thought I would post it. Most Jews that I know argue that Jesus never lived and aren’t aware of the Talmudic references to him.

I suppose that by posting it, it helped me solidify some issues with Talmud. The Mishna, codified around 200CE makes almost no references to written scripture to back up its holdings. It was only when the written Talmud was added hundreds of years earlier that this happens. And it happens in part because Christianity has grown by this time and the Jews felt that it was necessary to clarify things. It is in part, a reaction to Christianity’s success. Mostly, I just put it out there to start a discussion.

As for what I actually believe about Jesus and Mary… I believe Jesus was a person. I don’t believe he was divine or the messiah. I don’t really ever think about Mary, but I guess I believe she had her children the way other mother’s have them, whether she was married to the father or not doesn’t really concern me.

 

[sassygal1973]

Jesus was a person, a person of The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ is The Messiah. Why do you keep denying Him like this? Why is it so hard to believe? It is all written in your Old Testament. Read The New Testament. Then decide. You are a very stubborn man.
I am through with this thread. Go post it on the Jewish Forum with the others.

Is it true The Jewish people are the most hated in the world? I wonder why?

 

[Valke2]

Saint, I understand coming from that awful Jewish forum. I think this thread belongs on there. Valke, how can you even put this **** in people’s heads?? And why are you on a Catholic forum anyway?? Shouldn’t you be bashing us on your own forums?? Like the rest of them?

I’m not bashing. I’m in the Non-Catholic Religion forum. “like the rest of them?” Am I going to be treated to a few “You people” now?

I apoligize to the reference to Mary. In retrospect I should have known it would illicit strong reactions. I think the language used about her sounds harsher today than it was meant to sound when it was first written.

 

[Valke2]

There are certain events that, when they happen, no one can be in doubt. If I bump into my friend who is 9 months pregnant, I won’t have to ask “did you have the baby yet?” We believe that the coming of the Messiah is this type of self-evident event. There is nothing in the Jewish scriptures to suggest that one would have to wonder whether or not the Messiah came. His coming will be self-evident to all. The criteria for identifying the Messiah are so clear, and their fullfillment would be so obvious, that only one who denies reality could fail to recognize him when he comes.

Jesus being the messiah is far from self evident. I understand you have faith that he was. That’s great.

 

[Valke2]

Now really why get upset? what can a person expect from people who wanted Jesus dead? do you expect to find flattering writings?

Valke2, what else is written in Talmud? and do you consider these opinions or inspired scripture?

I don’t consider them inspired scripture. They are not part of the Mishna. They are later writings. I guess i would put them in the categories of history/allegory. There are things that are clearly in error, such as the name of of Jesus’ teacher. That person actually lived 100 years before Jesus. It is believed that this was an attempt to disguise the story, so that one could argue that the Yeshu referred to here was not the one that the Christians worship. It is also possible that the story simply became confused over time. Jesus was not exactly the centerpiece of Jewish thought after all.

There’s another reference to Jesus in Talmud that is more of a midrash – a story told to illustrate a truth. These are common in Judaism. For example, telling of an argument between two rabbis in which God intervenes… The factual truth of the story is not important in midrash, but rather the truth that the story is meant to illustrate.

I don’t want to talk about the one involving Jesus. If the quote on Mary got everyone upset, you don’t need to hear this one.

 

[sassygal1973]

There are certain events that, when they happen, no one can be in doubt. If I bump into my friend who is 9 months pregnant, I won’t have to ask “did you have the baby yet?” We believe that the coming of the Messiah is this type of self-evident event. There is nothing in the Jewish scriptures to suggest that one would have to wonder whether or not the Messiah came. His coming will be self-evident to all. The criteria for identifying the Messiah are so clear, and their fullfillment would be so obvious, that only one who denies reality could fail to recognize him when he comes.

Jesus being the messiah is far from self evident. I understand you have faith that he was. That’s great.

But there is scripture throughout The Old Testament, that every word and every prophet foretold The Messiah as Jesus. Described in detail…what more proof can you want? Just a yes or no question. Have you read The Old and New Testaments?

 

[Valke2]

He’s an orthodox Jew, of course he accepts the Talmud.

I’m a conservative jew.

This topic is in bad taste, I really don’t understand what a topic like this is going to do. Calling Mary a whore, saying Jesus is boiling in pig semen, we’ve all heard this before, some things are better left not discussed.

.
Ok. I didn’t say anything about boiling pig semen.

I can’t participate in a Catholic forum that allows Mary and Jesus to be blasphemed so openly and directly under the guise of “discussion”.

I resign this account and I will not simply take a 20 day breather, I won’t be back and I will withdraw any support I offer to CAF via money or magazine subsrciptions in the future.

Don’t withdraw your support. IF it upsets you that much, I won’t say anything about Mary at all.

 

[Valke2]

But there is scripture throughout The Old Testament, that every word and every prophet foretold The Messiah as Jesus. Described in detail…what more proof can you want? Just a yes or no question. Have you read The Old and New Testaments?

I’ve read the Jewish Tanach, which is made up of the Five books of Moses, the Prophets, and other writings. I study them on my own daily and with a rabbi weekly. I’ve read the Gospels in the Christian Bible.