The Talmud and Jesus

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Eden said:
I’m just as confused as you are then. What was the reason that you started this thread? I know it wasn’t started out of my concern that Jesus was excluded from the Talmud. I can only guess that you believed that by starting a thread about these characters whom you assert are Jesus and His Mother, that you hoped to plant a seed of doubt about Jesus’ divinity in the minds of Catholic forum members. So, as a member of a faith which denies the divinity of Christ, of course it serves your purpose to post here as though those passages in the Talmud refer to Jesus Christ.
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OR he just thought that some people here might find it interesting what the Talmud possibly has to say about Jesus. I know I found it very interesting!
 
Eden said:
I’m just as confused as you are then. What was the reason that you started this thread? I know it wasn’t started out of my concern that Jesus was excluded from the Talmud. I can only guess that you believed that by starting a thread about these characters whom you assert are Jesus and His Mother, that you hoped to plant a seed of doubt about Jesus’ divinity in the minds of Catholic forum members. So, as a member of a faith which denies the divinity of Christ, of course it serves your purpose to post here as though those passages in the Talmud refer to Jesus Christ.
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It was, I though an interesting topic and one that many jews as well as christians are unaware of. I’ve heard many jews argue with christians that Jesus did not exist. So when I learned about these Talmudic references, it was a bit of a shock to me. It is not an question of “casting seeds of doubt.” Everytime you post something about Jesus to me are you trying to cast seeds of doubt about Judiasm or are you just highlighing something about your own faith?
 
Why are some attributing malicious motives to valke2 ?
I certainly didn’t take his post that way.
And his post really devastates the position of
those who claim that Jesus never existed, so I found it quite helpful.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)
 
Kaninchen said:
They’ve been hawked about the internet for years - mainly by rabid anti-Semites, by the way.
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I’ve seen a lot of the “talmud” references cited on antisemetic websites. For the most part, they are either complete fabrications, mistranslations, or partial truths. I really haven’t seen the verse regarding Jesus as sorcerer quoted.
 
Jaypeeto3 said:
Why are some attributing malicious motives to valke2 ?
I certainly didn’t take his post that way.
And his post really devastates the position of
those who claim that Jesus never existed, so I found it quite helpful.

God bless,
Jaypeeto3 (aka Jaypeeto4)
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that was one of my points, thanks.
 
Just as an aside, I happened to have been approcahed by two christian missionaries (don’t know what sect) on the subway yesterday. They immediately launched into the Isaiah 53 argument and started showing me verses in the book of Daniel which, the woman claimed, actually made a rabbi weep when she showed it to him.

As a Jew, I can’t begin to describe how ridiculous this all sounded to me. It really is like coming up to me and telling me up is down and down is up. The truth is that while we are “brother religions” it has become clear to me that we are speaking two different languages and that there is a lot less common ground that I originally thought. So perhaps one of my goals here was to make it clear as to how different our beliefs are.
 
Valke2 said:
Just as an aside, I happened to have been approcahed by two christian missionaries (don’t know what sect) on the subway yesterday. They immediately launched into the Isaiah 53 argument and started showing me verses in the book of Daniel which, the woman claimed, actually made a rabbi weep when she showed it to him.

As a Jew, I can’t begin to describe how ridiculous this all sounded to me. It really is like coming up to me and telling me up is down and down is up. The truth is that while we are “brother religions” it has become clear to me that we are speaking two different languages and that there is a lot less common ground that I originally thought. So perhaps one of my goals here was to make it clear as to how different our beliefs are.
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I’ll bet my bottom dollar that person was not Catholic. Sounds like a fundamentalist who wants to get her $$ worth by converting a Jew.

Catholics feel no need to convert Jews since your covenant is valid.

So post this bunk on a fundamentalist site and you will get the desired results you are looking for.😉
 
Damascus said:
I’ll bet my bottom dollar that person was not Catholic. Sounds like a fundamentalist who wants to get her $$ worth by converting a Jew.

Catholics feel no need to convert Jews since your covenant is valid.

So post this bunk on a fundamentalist site and you will get the desired results you are looking for.😉
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I’m pretty sure she wasn’t Catholic. But the perspecptive used in viewing the Tanakh seems to be similar between Catholics and other Christians.
 
Valke2 said:
I’m pretty sure she wasn’t Catholic. But the perspecptive used in viewing the Tanakh seems to be similar between Catholics and other Christians.
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I know, its funny I get the same perspective from Jews on the Bible too.

Go figure.:rolleyes:
 
Valke2 said:
I really haven’t seen the verse regarding Jesus as sorcerer quoted.
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I have. “Jews hate goys, Jews eat Christian babies, Jews say nasty things about Jesus.”

Sort of thing Stormfront and other Naziwannabee boards used to love (probably still do).
 
inJESUS said:
lol forget about prophecies. To a Jew, in order for a person to be the Messiah, he has to accomplish things first…if Jesus did not do what people think he should have done, then no prophecy will convince.
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The problem is that Jews are looking for “Messiah Ben David,” and forget about “Messiah Ben Joseph.” Most Christians (and many Jews) don’t know that Jewish tradition – going back long before Yeshua – interprets Scripture to say that there will TWO Messiahs: “Messiah Ben Joseph,” the suffering servant-priest and “Messiah Ben David,” the conquering king. The Vilna Gaon – the Genius from Vilnius, a rabbi named Elijah Ben Solomon Zalman who lived in the 1700s – wrote commentaries on the Messianic prophecies, , recently collected, translated into English, and entitled “The Voice of the Turtledove.” A few excepts:
  • Messiah Ben Joseph’s province in salvation, not conquest.
  • Messiah Ben Joseph brings redemption through ransom (we see this clearly – the world was abducted by the Adversary, and He gave Himself as a ransom).
  • Messiah Ben Joseph will come riding on a donkey.
  • Messiah Ben Joseph “comes from the earth” (i.e., is born naturally. Messiah Ben David “comes from heaven” (we know this as the Second Coming).
  • Messiah Ben Joseph must come before Messiah Ben David.
 
Oh welcome Rabbi ! Jews believe 2 Messiahs will come and Christians believe it is One Messiah 2 times…it’s about interpretation . But i guess we must read about the Jewish interpretations of Messiah Ben Joseph because Jews often deny the suffering Messiah.
 
inJESUS said:
Oh welcome Rabbi ! Jews believe 2 Messiahs will come and Christians believe it is One Messiah 2 times…it’s about interpretation . But i guess we must read about the Jewish interpretations of Messiah Ben Joseph because Jews often deny the suffering Messiah.
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Well, now you know a good book to refer them to to read about the two Messiahs – The Voice of the Turtledove. It isn’t even by a Believer in Yeshua (well, supposedly, but I have a suspicion the Vilna Gaon was a closet Believer… there were a lot of them).
 
RabbiAdamBernay said:
The problem is that Jews are looking for “Messiah Ben David,” and forget about “Messiah Ben Joseph.” Most Christians (and many Jews) don’t know that Jewish tradition – going back long before Yeshua – interprets Scripture to say that there will TWO Messiahs: “Messiah Ben Joseph,” the suffering servant-priest and “Messiah Ben David,” the conquering king. The Vilna Gaon – the Genius from Vilnius, a rabbi named Elijah Ben Solomon Zalman who lived in the 1700s – wrote commentaries on the Messianic prophecies, , recently collected, translated into English, and entitled “The Voice of the Turtledove.” A few excepts:
  • Messiah Ben Joseph’s province in salvation, not conquest.
  • Messiah Ben Joseph brings redemption through ransom (we see this clearly – the world was abducted by the Adversary, and He gave Himself as a ransom).
  • Messiah Ben Joseph will come riding on a donkey.
  • Messiah Ben Joseph “comes from the earth” (i.e., is born naturally. Messiah Ben David “comes from heaven” (we know this as the Second Coming).
  • Messiah Ben Joseph must come before Messiah Ben David.
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My understanding is that Messiah Ben Joseph is NOT required to come before Messiah Ben David. He’s merely a minor “possibility.” And what’s all this about equating Messiah Ben David with the “Second Coming”??
 
Valke2 said:
My understanding is that Messiah Ben Joseph is NOT required to come before Messiah Ben David. He’s merely a minor “possibility.”
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According to the Vilna Gaon, he must.
Valke2 said:
And what’s all this about equating Messiah Ben David with the “Second Coming”??
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There are two sets of Messianic prophecies in Tanakh. One set describes the suffering servant/priest who will redeem Israel from its sins via his own suffering (and ransom, according to the Vilna Gaon). The other set describes the conquering king who will rule the entire world from Zion. It is only Jewish tradition that says these are two separate Messiahs. They could equally be two comings of the same Messiah.
 
RabbiAdamBernay said:
According to the Vilna Gaon, he must.

There are two sets of Messianic prophecies in Tanakh. One set describes the suffering servant/priest who will redeem Israel from its sins via his own suffering (and ransom, according to the Vilna Gaon). The other set describes the conquering king who will rule the entire world from Zion. It is only Jewish tradition that says these are two separate Messiahs. They could equally be two comings of the same Messiah.
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This should be another thread. I think you are putting a fair amount of spin on your suffering servant argument. However, I just realized your a messianic so at least I know where you’re coming from.
 
Valke2 said:
This should be another thread. I think you are putting a fair amount of spin on your suffering servant argument. However, I just realized your a messianic so at least I know where you’re coming from.
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Please explain how this is “spin.”
 
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