Indeed. Because there can only be One God.
Perhaps. But that’s *your *idea of moral perfection.
Sure. What are you confused about?You just said that God created three people, and perhaps more, ontologically morally perfect.
The word “could” is not the best choice for discussing this issue. Here are the facts:
Some of this remains a mystery, to be sure, but I believe He did give us a nature opposed to sinning, but we misused it and we now have a nature that is drawn to sin. Part of the understanding of this is that God created us with a free will so that we would be capable of love (ie made in His image).
No, Jesus is not a programmed robot. He was like us “in all ways except sin” and so the idea that He was not “tempted” is inaccurate IMHO. He experienced everything we experienced but He, unlike Adam, always chose His Fathers Will and thereby never sinned.
Again, we don’t have all the answers, but Mary was created untainted by original sin, just as Eve was. Unlike Eve, however, Mary chose love over self, obedience over disobedience and thereby avoided sin. I think it would be a mistake, however, to equate Mary’s sinlessness with Christ’s as Mary remains a creation while all creation came to be through Christ.
This:
You can’t have it both ways. Either there were ontologically morrally perfect people other than God, or there weren’t.
Yes, it does. Which I think that Jesus, being morally perfect, was genuinely attracted to sin in the desert. His triumph over sin is all the more impressive when it is looked at in this light.
Ah, I see where your confusion lies.
Sure. They wouldn’t call it a temptation if it wasn’t, well, tempting.
Right, but these people were ontologically morally perfect, if we go by the moral definition you provided earlier.
Which brings me to what I’ve been saying all along. Jesus could sin, in both senses of the word that you provided! And that brings me back to the original question. What would have happened if he had?**
… His nature makes sinning contradictory to who He has told us He is. In this sense, He cannot sin.
) Answering the question of the duality of Jesus incorrectly has led many people to heretical thoughts and some left the Church over these debates, so tread softly. How is Jesus (fully God; incapable of sin) abdle to be tempted? (Here we must be asking about His fully human nature.) Jesus being human is still Jesus. As man he does what we do, has emotions and expresses them, grows tired and sleeps, hungry and eats, etc., but He still is also God. He is still and always, holy. 
No, they were not ontologically morally perfect, if we go by the definition I provided of perfection earlier.
No, Jesus could never have sinned, even if he was tempted. Not sure how you draw the above conclusion.
I don’t understand the question. It’s as nonsensical as saying, “What would have happened if hell became heaven?”
I still say He could and He couldn’t at the same time.
Being human He could be tempted but being also God, He could not sin. Period. His human side could sin his Divine side could not. Sin cannot live where God is. He could and He couldn’t at the same time.I think He could have if He wanted to. He could do anything.
The question doesn’t make logical sense and is therefore invalid, in that its like asking the consequences of moving the immovable object.
If Jesus was God, and God can not sin, then either both Jesus and God do not have free will, or else it is possible for someone to exist who has free will and by his nature does not sin. If the latter is true, then the natural follow-up question is, “why didn’t God make all of us with this nature?”1 - God is who He is. (I am who am) His nature is Holy. This (His Holiness) is one of the ways we have been taught about Him; through scripture and by how He has chosen to reveal Himself to us.
2 - With His holiness (here I’m thinking “separate” or “other” for holy) we describe his nature as “other” or different than our nature.
3 - This definition of holy excludes what we know of as sin. As a Holy God, He doesn’t sin - He doesn’t covet, or not keep His day Holy, or blaspheme, or dishonor His parents
So God is Holy. God is not sin.*
As God, Jesus became incarnate for us, to share all things with us. The mysterious duality of Jesus - fully God & fully human - is, I believe, where the question “could Jesus sin?” becomes problematic. If I’m right, you’re where others have been throughout the centuries. (Sad note here: You’re not asking any new questions!
I agree, this seems hard for me to comprehend! I, as a sinful human, only know my weaknesses and capacity to sin. Jesus, on the other hand, knows His nature and lack of sin. So when satan is on the scene – “don’t you want this?”, “we can bring the angels down to help here…”, etc., I think of how I would respond (in my sinful nature) and say, “how would I respond?” and the answer is likely, sinfully. Jesus, though tempted (the devil still offers the same things) responds as who He is, “naturally” (His nature) without sinning. He is tempted (“don’t you want this”) but not as I am tempted (“ooh, that sounds nice!”). His response is, “No, of course not” and then cites scriptures. He shows us how we should be instead of how we’ve become.
Jesus says, this is how I Am - sinless, “God reliant” in all circumstances, even as a human. So is He tempted? Not like me. He has given over His nature to God the Father. (and don’t forget, even as man, He still is God!) I have not fully given myself to God. I have retained my nature to “be as god” when convenient. (For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil. - Gen 3:5)
I hope this helps a little.
Peace and Blessings
- One more thing, in the response I stated “So God is Holy. God is not sin.” Yet we know at one point, Jesus took up our sin - “For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Cor 5:21) This, though, is another conversation!
Steven
I was thinking of this definition:
Whether or not they were ontologically morally perfect now becomes moot point. The fact of the matter is, they, like Jesus, could have chosen to sin, because both found sin attractive and were physically able to carry it out.
I have shown that Jesus could sin in the second sense as well, because he was truly tempted, that is to say, he was attracted to sin. You yourself said that moral perfection is best achieved when someone goes against their inclinations to do the right thing.
It is only nonsensical if Jesus could not have sinned. I have shown that he could sin in both senses of the term, which means that the question is not nonsensical.
It is impossible for jesus to both be able to sin and be unable to sin at the same time. At least in the same sense. It defies logic, which God can’t do. If God simply can not sin, and Jesus could not sin, then neither God nor Jesus have free will. Which I suppose is a possibility, but oppens a whole range of other questions.I still say He could and He couldn’t at the same time.
see post # 73I think He could have if He wanted to. He could do anything.
But He didn’t choose to sin, nor lapse into it. This was not because He had no free will, rather He did not sin because He was (is) perfect, being both fully human and fully divine.
The question doesn’t make logical sense and is therefore invalid, in that its like asking the consequences of moving the immovable object.
could you clarify this sentence?I don’t agree with the idea that God can’t defy logic. Lots of miracles defy logic, walking on water defies logic yet Jesus did it.
The virgin birth defies logic yet it happened. The idea that God is everywhere at the same time and in all periods of time at the same time defies logic yet it’s true. Our whole idea of what we see as logic is based on our experiences and what we know and understand of how things should be, but God is beyond the scope of the rules of our understanding. We only consider as logic the things we can understand, if we can’t understand it then we see it as illogical. The internet would seem illogical to people of the distant past, yet it makes sense to us because we can understand it. What we consider as logic is simply things we can understand so to say God can’t defy logic puts Him in a box saying He can’t do anything that we can’t understand. God is infinitely smarter than us and we humans don’t know or understand everything there is to understand. When we get to heaven we will see how a lot of things we thought illogical are perfectly logical including Jesus’ ability to sin and not sin at the same time. Because then we would be God. And there cannot be multiple gods. That defies logic.