The temptation of Christ

[sharonh28]

I have been on here often asking for good answers for my JW callers. Last week when they came - they ensisted that Satan rules the world - apparently most people answer them with God rules the world -… I degress, they prove Satan rules the world by the biblical writings on Jesus’ tempation after the 40 days fasting. I don’t even know if they get the part where it is a reference to the old testaments - 40 days of Moses or the 40 years of wandering in the dessert…however, they do say that the fact that Satan even had the power to make Jesus and offer proves that he rules the world - I feel that we are not even to a place in discussing the passage where I can say anything about Jesus’ refusal to the temptation when I won’t even acknowledge that Satan does rule the world - I belive God ALLOWS evil to exist but we have free wills (and the temptation is Jesus showing us how to use that free will). I can’t get beyond the Satan having power over the whole world thing in the first place. Anyway, there proof is that Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world…this, to them proves that Satan rules them and had the power to give them to Jesus in the first place and that is why he had to refuse the temptation. I want something to say to show them that evil - does exist, satan exists…yes but only because God allows them to exist. I have made a mess of this but if anyone understands what I am saying I’d appreciate a thought - thankis slm

 

[water]

I have been on here often asking for good answers for my JW callers.

Others would have better answers to your questions, but I’d like to ask those JW friends if they themselves are in this world and ruled by Satan. Let’s see how they respond to that.

 

[mercygate]

I have been on here often asking for good answers for my JW callers. Last week when they came - they ensisted that Satan rules the world - apparently most people answer them with God rules the world -… I degress, they prove Satan rules the world by the biblical writings on Jesus’ tempation after the 40 days fasting. I don’t even know if they get the part where it is a reference to the old testaments - 40 days of Moses or the 40 years of wandering in the dessert…however, they do say that the fact that Satan even had the power to make Jesus and offer proves that he rules the world - I feel that we are not even to a place in discussing the passage where I can say anything about Jesus’ refusal to the temptation when I won’t even acknowledge that Satan does rule the world - I belive God ALLOWS evil to exist but we have free wills (and the temptation is Jesus showing us how to use that free will). I can’t get beyond the Satan having power over the whole world thing in the first place. Anyway, there proof is that Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world…this, to them proves that Satan rules them and had the power to give them to Jesus in the first place and that is why he had to refuse the temptation. I want something to say to show them that evil - does exist, satan exists…yes but only because God allows them to exist. I have made a mess of this but if anyone understands what I am saying I’d appreciate a thought - thankis slm

Does the fact that Satan makes an offer mean that he has the power to deliver?

 

[sharonh28]

Thanks, both of those were very good things to say. That is where I wanted to go but just was not nimble of mind at the time (and obiously not in writing the post either - only excuse - no glasses, small screen, no proof reading). I was also really too busy underlining THE God in my Bible as they were quoting “a” God. thanks.

I know I’ll be back with more questions, I do know my faith well, and the Bible fairly well but not so well I can say well but jump to this chapter and verse. Their “topic” driven agenda just kills me. It seems that I saw and may have even owned at some time a Biblical Guide by topic. Is anyone familiar with this because I am sure they are just quoting those things that make the WT point and not everything written on the topic.

They are coming back Monday - I think I’ll see where we are going and try to get some answers before they come. Many times there response is “we’ll get to that” or that I am not staying on their subject…I think they are busy running back to their elders, just liike I’m running here

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

Others would have better answers to your questions, but I’d like to ask those JW friends if they themselves are in this world and ruled by Satan. Let’s see how they respond to that.

that one is easy—they are IN the world but not OF the world.

 

[water]

that one is easy—they are IN the world but not OF the world.

then what makes them think Satan controlled Jesus?

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

then what makes them think Satan controlled Jesus?

they don’t think Satan controlled Jesus—if he controlled Him, Jesus would have made the wrong choice! They think Satan tempted Jesus, not controlled Him. And Satan COULD tempt Him because he CONTROLLED the world. They argue Satan could not offer Jesus the kingdoms and the worship if he didn’t have control over them.

Jesus Himself calls Satan the ruler of the world, the ruler of darkness, but He conquered him.

JWs got it wrapped up. There is nothing you can say they won’t twist and explain away—I know I was one of the best they had! Best to tell them not to come back so you don’t give them any time to count on their time slips. Every repeat visit is counted as a brownie point. They are using you. Only reason I can see to let them do that is if you think it is wasting their time so they can’t influence someone else.

Every JW apologist who comes to this forum is counting their time too. Don’t engage them, that is exactly what they want. If a JW comes here looking for the truth they will never admit they are a JW because they are not allowed to be here for that and risk being shunned. If they admit they are JWs they are here to proselytize. Plain and simple. If they tell you otherwise–they are lying. They consider lying to be ok if they do it to preach.

 

[sharonh28]

I know they are getting “brownie” points but in one of our first meetings I asked them what church they belongeed to before becoming JW’s. One used to be Baptist the other Catholic. I had a very good friend years ago who converted to JW. I asked what on earth about their religion apealed to her. She answered that she could no longer be Catholic because in Catholicism, if someone committed suicide they went to hell. I was astonished that she had such a lack of knowledge of her own faith. According to her husband she also had not believed in the true presence in the Eucharist. So whe I look at the Catholic lady who visits me, and even the Baptist lady, I think they must have had such a lack of understanding of the Catholic and/or Christian faith that living on earth with their kids playing with lions held such an appeal for them. I know the JWs are very anti-Catholic and if for no other reason I do like to correct some of their misconceptions. I know the chances are slim to none that they will look back but I do know that they are surprised at some of my answers. The used to be Catholic lady said she just couldn’t stay Catholic because of the firey hell. I told her that I didn’t know if it was fire or not but I did know it was the abscense of God. The other day when they were telling me about Satan ruled the world, they said that most people answer that God rules the world and that they believe those people are so wrong. I said I agrred with them on that. That physically here, on earth, today, men rule the world. Men who have the free will that God gave them. To my mind God rules men’s souls. Man has a choice to give himself to God or not. I guess it is just their idea of governments all being evil that lead them to the Satan rules thing. anyway, I just like to clear up some of their misconceptions of, not even Catholic, but Christian beliefs.

 

[mercygate]

I know they are getting “brownie” points but in one of our first meetings I asked them what church they belongeed to before becoming JW’s. One used to be Baptist the other Catholic. I had a very good friend years ago who converted to JW. I asked what on earth about their religion apealed to her. She answered that she could no longer be Catholic because in Catholicism, if someone committed suicide they went to hell.

Honestly, does she think that if a non-Catholic commits suicide the consequences would be any different than for a Catholic? This is delirious.

I was astonished that she had such a lack of knowledge of her own faith. According to her husband she also had not believed in the true presence in the Eucharist. So whe I look at the Catholic lady who visits me, and even the Baptist lady, I think they must have had such a lack of understanding of the Catholic and/or Christian faith that living on earth with their kids playing with lions held such an appeal for them. I know the JWs are very anti-Catholic and if for no other reason I do like to correct some of their misconceptions. I know the chances are slim to none that they will look back but I do know that they are surprised at some of my answers.

I am sure they are!

The used to be Catholic lady said she just couldn’t stay Catholic because of the firey hell. I told her that I didn’t know if it was fire or not but I did know it was the abscense of God.

Once again, this knocks me out. If you don’t believe in something, then it won’t be true.

The other day when they were telling me about Satan ruled the world, they said that most people answer that God rules the world and that they believe those people are so wrong. I said I agrred with them on that. That physically here, on earth, today, men rule the world. Men who have the free will that God gave them. To my mind God rules men’s souls. Man has a choice to give himself to God or not. I guess it is just their idea of governments all being evil that lead them to the Satan rules thing. anyway, I just like to clear up some of their misconceptions of, not even Catholic, but Christian beliefs.

Good luck. But the minute they realize you’re not going to sign up at the Kingdom Hall, you will never hear from them again. Gotta play it softly. I scared 'em off last time because I hooted like a fool when they told me Constantine was the Pope! Should have stayed cool and calmly pointed out that he couldn’t have been Pope because he wasn’t even baptized until a month before he died!

 

[sharonh28]

Should have stayed cool and calmly pointed out that he couldn’t have been Pope because he wasn’t even baptized until a month before he died!

Well, yeah!!! I just love the look of amazement on their faces after they tell me what my church teaches and I tell them that the WT is feeding them garbage. I say it much more nicely though. I think they will keep coming - like you said - I am easy hours racked up but I just hope that maybe at one point they will question something in thier own system of beliefs You are right though, they are pretty brainwashed so they are probably just hearing buzzzbuzzzbuzzz when I say anything. You may have changed my approach - I might just send them away and pray for them. I like your quote and guess it applies here.

 

[VWcrazy]

If the JWs want to do a Bible study in your home, I think you should set the rules and the agenda of the Bible study. Don’t let them control what topic is being discussed. Also, insist on using a Catholic Bible and to use the Catechism. Don’t allow them to use any JW publications - like the Falsetower.

 

[mercygate]

If the JWs want to do a Bible study in your home, I think you should set the rules and the agenda of the Bible study. Don’t let them control what topic is being discussed. Also, insist on using a Catholic Bible and to use the Catechism. Don’t allow them to use any JW publications - like the Falsetower.

That will NOT happen. I have no problem using a non-Catholic translation with them. The BEST Catholics who engage with them even use their own New World Translation. When they came to me, I whipped out my Greek New Testament and my Hebrew OT because they said they relied on the original languages. They do not often encounter a Catholic, who escorts them into the household library, lined top-to-bottom with books on Scripture and theology . . .

But, as I said, they figured out that I wasn’t going to be tractable and they won’t come back. My house probably has a “no-visit” code on it now. Drat!

If they DO come back, I will try to engage them in their personal conversion stories and ask them what the best thing about being a Witness is.

 

[Good_Daughter]

If they DO come back, I will try to engage them in their personal conversion stories and ask them what the best thing about being a Witness is.

I’ve been thinking about that lately. I spent over a year meeting regularly with a woman who is a Jehovah’s Witness. We became friends and I miss her visits. My one regret is never having asked about her personal faith journey. (In contrast, the Mormon missionaries who currently visit me gave their testimony immediately.)

Maybe Catholics who wish to “plant seeds” with Jehovah’s Witnesses could do so by taking a personal approach to faith. Discussing Scripture and Tradition is certainly a hard road to take. As Ravyn Guiliani mentioned, Jehovah’s Witnesses have those topics very neatly wrapped up.

Is it really so bad for a devout Catholic to engage Jehovah’s Witnesses, thereby helping them to gain brownie points? The Watchtower’s points system has no bearing on me as a Catholic and if missionaries are in my house, they’re being exposed to at least some Catholic truth. This also takes some of the time they might use to influence lukewarm Catholics away from the Church.

 

[mercygate]

I’ve been thinking about that lately. I spent over a year meeting regularly with a woman who is a Jehovah’s Witness. We became friends and I miss her visits. My one regret is never having asked about her personal faith journey. (In contrast, the Mormon missionaries who currently visit me gave their testimony immediately.)

Maybe Catholics who wish to “plant seeds” with Jehovah’s Witnesses could do so by taking a personal approach to faith. Discussing Scripture and Tradition is certainly a hard road to take. As Ravyn Guiliani mentioned, Jehovah’s Witnesses have those topics very neatly wrapped up.

Is it really so bad for a devout Catholic to engage Jehovah’s Witnesses, thereby helping them to gain brownie points? The Watchtower’s points system has no bearing on me as a Catholic and if missionaries are in my house, they’re being exposed to at least some Catholic truth. This also takes some of the time they might use to influence lukewarm Catholics away from the Church.

I agree. Truth needs to have a face (yours) before it gets a language, espeically for people who are so deeply engaged in the “study” of their faith as the Witnesses are.

 

[LilyM]

Satan also promised Jesus that if he threw himself off the Temple roof GOD would send angels to protect Him from falling. Satan certainly has no business making promises on behalf of God, don’tcha think?

Point being Satan’s promises were all false, Satan being the father of lies.

Show your JW friends the OT - Satan needed God’s permission to tempt Job. He couldn’t rule a flea much less the Earth.

 

[mercygate]

Satan also promised Jesus that if he threw himself off the Temple roof GOD would send angels to protect Him from falling. Satan certainly has no business making promises on behalf of God, don’tcha think?

Point being Satan’s promises were all false, Satan being the father of lies.

Show your JW friends the OT - Satan needed God’s permission to tempt Job. He couldn’t rule a flea much less the Earth.

Yeah. Like Satan told Adam and Eve that they would not die if they ate the fruit. He told the “truth” – they didn’t die: at that moment. But the truth he failed to tell was that they would die eventually.

 

[excaliber]

It dose seem as though god has alowed the devil to exercise great influence. For example sex-violence-love of money is promenant, and these perversions
did not originate with Almighty God…but with the devil who uses these to tempt us.
It is interesting that when the bible mentions ST.Michael assisting an angel trying to give daniel a message, ST.Michael fought a disobedient angel…or demon who was prince over the region of persia. Add this to the fact that scripture dose call the devil the ruler of the world…and also add the fact that the devil offered them to Jesus. All this leads me to believe that the devil dose have GREAT influence over nations…Mabey that is why there is CONSTANT war. Even in our country blacks and whites have been at war for years, now anyone with common sense,dose not believe that one race is better then the other each individual is different. So who is keeping something as stupid as racism going? It must be the devil it surtainly is not God.
Not talking to Jw’s because they can count the time in minestry reports is not a good idea, I personaly think jw’s are good bible exorcise for catholics, and they will get there time anyway.Many are sincere and don’t care about the time…it is the watchtower who MAKES them do it.
But anyway just because somone is a ruler dose not mean they rule over you personaly, so satan being a false god dos not mean he controls everyone…just those that allow it.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jude 1:9
But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

Why do you think there is such a disparity between the way Jesus in his temptation on earth vs Micheal with Satan on earth?